The problem we are going to have is that every positive brings a negative, So you'll get a really sensible rule which will do brilliant for the Country, then a really silly one just for the plebs who have no common sense.

Unfortunately we've had a lot of bad influence from other countries which doesn't help matters!

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Richies Project Rallye

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For our protection. The absolute majority of people (myself included), simply do not understand enough about the issues at hand and their knock-ons, which is why we pay politicians to worry about it on our behalf. You're forgetting that most people's knowledge of these things is what they've read in the papers, that does not give them the background knowledge and wisdom they need to make a good decision.

For example, if you said right - black and white vote - everyone votes today on whether we stay in the EU or not. I reckon due to its recent bad press, most people would vote to leave the EU. However what people wouldn't consider is the massive knock-ons that would have for our economy basically giving all these countries the middle finger and telling them we have absolutely no interest in trading with them because we think we're better than them.

All of a sudden none of Europe will trade with us, or up our prices considerably. Great, we're no longer in the EU, but we're now f**ked.

Just one example of how there's far more going on than people think, and much as some people ignorantly seem to think they should, these massive decisions on our country's economic future should not be made by Sun readers in a pub.

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Ok, so *if* what you're saying is correct Owain, what's the difference between giving us the vote now or in 2015?
If we're going to be screwed if we leave (which, according to you we will be and you do have some valid arguments for that) then surely if it's for our own protection we shouldn't be given the vote at all?

Seems very strange that we *will* be given it, just at a convenient time when Dave from Wantage has got what he wants first, that's right another term in office to royally mess things up again in 'Take 2'. It really does sound like a very near case of blackmail to be honest, you can only have what you want if you vote for me first...
This isn't about our own protection, otherwise we would never get anywhere near a referendum. This is all about someone keeping the keys to No. 10 on his keyring for another term IMO.

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"Supercharged - 454.1bhp/317.5lb/ft"
Peugeot 306 GTi-6
2000 (X), Moonstone

The law has two sides, the cat and mouse and mouse will always try to get away with it, when the cat is much like scratchy off the Simpson's then the mouse will easily get away with it. I think that any enforcement should be legally correct and the more people that put that to the test to try and get away with it the more they will try to be correct to stop it happening again, so its a good thing really, in the long run.

We live in this world as a community of people, ie the human race. What comes with this in mind are rules for the safety of others from the few that dont care for the rules, this will never change unless we all have mind controlling chips added to all our brains The rules have to be totally correct given by law and if not they are not enforceable as said. We are all part of a collective society and nothing will change how the rules are set, its part of being in a society.

I really dont get why so many seem to argue so much about it all, the point has been clearly stated by the few and tbh i think some of these people may have been caught speeding and may feel p**sed they were not able to wiggle out of it.

Either way this thread is going no where now, you can go on and on all about rare sense and the country going down hill etc etc but this system is how it is, it all started as soon as we were given laws, nothing out there is any better, so i think people should just get over it tbh. You cant have no rules in a society or total rule in a society for it to work best for all, it always has to be shades of grey for both sides of the argument

Not sure why people haven't read the part about the wrong 60 sign not being very visible in bad conditions unlike the proper 60 style I think this is the main reason why they have a certain style and thickness of the numbers like all the other numbers on our roads, not just because they like the style of them

Oh and the EU has us by the balls just like the b(w)ankers do big time, no matter what we do we will loose out and that is when we lost our Greatness by bending over, after the 70's. I wish we lived back in the 60's with today's technology etc if i had a time machine id go to the 60's with clear roads and lots of mini skirts, girls were hotter back in the day

As for Cam, well he takes the pi$$ bigg time, not doing it till after the election giving a politician promise that will not happen like usual, typical c^ntservatives it wont change my vote ever. Why do people think we had to have a coalition, we have all lost faith in them all, we are not the only EU country either, look at Italy right now. The political spectrum is changing and we will start seeing other smaller parties getting bigger as a result. Why cant we have people that know what will work rather than who's the most popular.

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Owain has it spot on about a great deal if issues. We really do have such an easy life here and we're so well looked after its ridiculous. I see Stans point about the referendum on Europe but the public need time to fully understand what the consequences will be if we pull out of Europe before making any votes. I've been looking into it a bit myself and all i can find is reasons why we should stay. Our economy will suffer massively afterwards and the cost of living will be a lot higher than it is now. Once the public has been educated properly then i can't see anybody voting to leave.

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We're being offered it after all the anti eu propaganda. Get the working class hating the eu rather than our ruling class and work everything off that hatred. Reelected and no vote due to the report suggesting we might f**k ourselves over of we do leave. "sorry Britain, can we have another 10p for fuel?"

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Red Rallye - Rolling "restoration"

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But what about all this talk on staying away from the currency change?

Surely trade would still happen outside the EU?

Also i fail to see the benefits when the EU are constantly wishing to stuff stupid laws and human rights crap down our throats. - Or is this only a mild negative compared to the Huge positives we would lose?

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Richies Project Rallye

Electrical work carried out in Portsmouth

- Top Tip!!!

Don't suppose Owain could describe in great detail the benefits and negatives associated with the EU? I'm intrigued.

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Richies Project Rallye

Electrical work carried out in Portsmouth

- Top Tip!!!

Yeah, I appreciate that Ian and unfortunately this is a problem. The UK doesn't hardly manufacture any goods anymore and that's why we are forced to import and need that license so badly. This is what I meant by Great Britain being 'Great'. We used to be one of the World's superpowers, now we're dependent on a trade license because without it, we'd all be knackered as nothing decent is made in this country anymore.
As a result of this, the once 'Great' Britain is destined to be dictated to for a long time to come because the EU know essentially they have us by the balls. I'm going back to the times when things were made in this country and are STILL working and in service today when they are 30 odd years old. Items we import these days might last 5 years and that's it. There is no 'quality' as such anymore and this is where the downfall really lies I believe.

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"Supercharged - 454.1bhp/317.5lb/ft"
Peugeot 306 GTi-6
2000 (X), Moonstone

I think you're forgetting that on the whole whilst we did manufacture a lot of things, it was mostly s**te.

Our cars rusted and fell apart and were terribly built, our staff went on strike, our factories were all made in the Victorian era. The rest of the world then came along and started making things properly, hence our industry died.

Again, rose-tinted view of how it used to be. Japan making cars was one of the best things that ever happened for safety and technology as a whole, we'd still be making cars out of iron if we'd been allowed to carry on. The problem was that actually Brummies just weren't prepared to work as hard or for as little as the overseas workers, so ended up out of work. And that's the British way - complain about "foreigners taking our jobs", when in fact there are loads of jobs out there, but we're too stuck up to sweep streets or clean cars or stack shelves, because we've had it so good for so long.

People from other countries have seen far more in the way of hardship than we ever have, which is why even in our "terrible recession", people flock here from Eastern Europe because they'll happily work for £3 an hour washing cars, because it's better than having your family bombed or on the streets.

If people had wanted to, they could have not bought Japanese cars and instead stayed British, but people only ever want things to be as cheap as possible, which is why if people realised how badly we'd be screwed if we left the EU, they'd vote to stay in. People sit around complaining how Britain doesn't make anything any more, but they don't even bother looking for British vegetables in a supermarket. And that's the fundamental problem: we've had it too good for too long, and we're lazy.

And Rich - sorry, but that's about all I know, I'm sure as hell no expert, just giving another slant

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