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Author Subject: Midlife's Rallye
midlife

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Location: Colne, Lancashire

Registered: 13 Mar 2006

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Post #176
You can't beat rattle cans Dave!!!

Oh & look what arrived in the post todaySmile


Cool

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Posted 13th Oct 2010 at 03:20
daveyboy

aka Jim Davey

Location: Southampton

Registered: 01 Oct 2007

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Post #177
midlife wrote:
chris with a pug wrote:
Did you check all ur ring gaps?


All I did was try a ring in each bore, there was a gap but I didn't measure itDunno
Guess I'll have to trust the machine shop..

Cool


NO! NO! NO! Rule Number one. Don't assume anything! The top ring gaps on all my Wossners were tight or butting together. Each ot the four needed hand filing to get the perfect gap and so did two of the second rings. If you don't have sufficient clearance when the engine fires they will heat up expand and scrape themselves against your bores destroying themselves at best and damaging your lovely expensive bores at worst.
Filing rings is tricky and time consuming but is a VERY important part of the block build proccess. If you rush it, you can very easily turn your expensive 'umper'that blows combustion pressure into the crankcase wasting power and blowing by really heavily through the crankase breather system.

Rings can be filed by had or if you have access to a ring grinder use that. File from the outside of the ring inwards, take care not to drag the file backwards accross the ring as the hardened finish on the rings outer edge can chip, if this happens you will more than likely need to buy a set as I bet you won't get an individual one. Regularly close up the gap and hold the ring up to the light to check you are filing dead square, you should'nt be able to see any light through the gap. When checking the gap with a feeler guage in the bore, use the top of a piston inserted in the bore to push the ring down square.
You may find that the ring gaps are all ok, but if they are it's down to luck and a total accident. I would'nt take that chance given the care and attention to detail not to mention expense you have demonstrated so far. Wink

________________________________________

R H Davey Welding Supplies. I sell new and used welding equipment in the Hampshire area. I take on welding jobs in the evenings, ally casting repairs are one of my specialities but I can weld pretty much anything. PM me with your requirements.

Some of my services: (See my for sale threads)
Engine mount/chassis repair
Solid Beam Mounts BACK IN PRODUCTION
Harness bars
Posted 13th Oct 2010 at 03:46
coskev

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Location: Oswestry

Registered: 01 Nov 2009

Posts: 3,132

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Post #178
Looking goodCool

While you have the pistons out to check ring gapsWhistle

Put the rings in correctly tooWink ring gaps should be at thirds on the piston,not dead oppositeSmile
If you put the first two opposite you end up with the third ring gap directly below the first ring gapWink

________________________________________

Red GTB1756 powered Fabia VRS daily driver,LBSC Gti6 eater........

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Posted 13th Oct 2010 at 04:02
phillipm

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Location: Rotherham

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Post #179
Just offset them slightly, less blow by with them opposite but you don't want the gaps overlapping.

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Posted 13th Oct 2010 at 04:07
midlife

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Location: Colne, Lancashire

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Post #180
I thought filing the ring gaps went out of the window 20 years ago????
If memory serves me right you should use a diamond file for this job.
WTF are Wossner playing at supplying rings that are the wrong size for the bores the pistons were designed to fit intoDunno
As for ring gap positions the top two are diametrically opposite, the two thin rings either side of the oil scraper ring IMO are not there to aid compression but to stop the scraper ring from waring the top & bottom of the ring groove as it rotates? Anyway the gaps have been installed 90 degrees either side of the gap on the second ring down.
f*ck me do I really need to take the pistons out & check all the gaps? I assume the gap needs to be approx 0.004" or 0.10mm working of roughly 0.001" gap per inch of piston??

Doh

________________________________________

Get used to seeing the yellow one !!!MehMehMehMehMeh
Team 330™Cool
Team "no front end or engine"
Team "LIMITED EDITION" I live for the 306 stickerSmug
Team 0-60 in 6.44 & standing qtr in 14.808 @ 94.55mph all with std engineSmug
203bhp Corolla T-Sport daily driver stealthier than Kwai Chang Caine
Posted 13th Oct 2010 at 04:32
welshpug!

Capt Pedantic

Location: Bigend, Wales.

Registered: 27 Mar 2007

Posts: 25,839

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Post #181
0.3 to 0.5mm for stock rings, dunno for Wossner ones, should say on the instructions Ninja

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Posted 13th Oct 2010 at 04:49
phillipm

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Location: Rotherham

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Post #182
Are they bevelled or straight cut?

Personally I find clamping a dremel in the vice with a grinding wheel in makes a much easier job of sizing rings than a file, less chance of pulling an edge out too.

quote:
0.001" gap per inch of piston??

More like at least 0.004" and a little more for the second ring too. LOL

________________________________________

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Posted 13th Oct 2010 at 04:58
midlife

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Location: Colne, Lancashire

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Post #183
There were no insructions with the pistons!
I spent quite a bit of time trying to see if they were bevelled & gave up in the end because they looked straight, to be cautious though I installed all the rings with the markings uppermost.
I'm still struggling to believe that Wossner supply rings with undersized gaps!!!
0.3 to 0.5pm does sound a lot, when I tried my rings in my old block the gaps were 0.2mm which I thought was excessiveDunno
I struggled getting the caps off on the bench, it's going to be near on impossible on the crank!
Cool

________________________________________

Get used to seeing the yellow one !!!MehMehMehMehMeh
Team 330™Cool
Team "no front end or engine"
Team "LIMITED EDITION" I live for the 306 stickerSmug
Team 0-60 in 6.44 & standing qtr in 14.808 @ 94.55mph all with std engineSmug
203bhp Corolla T-Sport daily driver stealthier than Kwai Chang Caine
Posted 13th Oct 2010 at 05:03
phillipm

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Location: Rotherham

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Post #184
You might need a little bit more than that what with it being high boost to cope with the extra heat Dunno

________________________________________

- Bespoke rollcages/additions/adjustments. Half cages right up to complete custom spaceframes - MSA/FIA spec, CDS, ROPT, T45, etc - PM me
Email me!
Custom-made polybushes available - need an odd size or fitment? - anything from batch work to one-off pieces.
Posted 13th Oct 2010 at 05:15
midlife

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Location: Colne, Lancashire

Registered: 13 Mar 2006

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Post #185
You'd think that the required ring gaps would be common knowledge Dunno

Cool

________________________________________

Get used to seeing the yellow one !!!MehMehMehMehMeh
Team 330™Cool
Team "no front end or engine"
Team "LIMITED EDITION" I live for the 306 stickerSmug
Team 0-60 in 6.44 & standing qtr in 14.808 @ 94.55mph all with std engineSmug
203bhp Corolla T-Sport daily driver stealthier than Kwai Chang Caine
Posted 13th Oct 2010 at 05:21
phillipm

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Location: Rotherham

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Post #186
Suprised they weren't included in the instructions tbh, I'm sure they used to list them in the old catalogue.

________________________________________

- Bespoke rollcages/additions/adjustments. Half cages right up to complete custom spaceframes - MSA/FIA spec, CDS, ROPT, T45, etc - PM me
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Posted 13th Oct 2010 at 05:24
chris with a pug

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Location: Southampton

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Post #187
midlife wrote:

I'm still struggling to believe that Wossner supply rings with undersized gaps!!!


When we did Jims pistons some of them actually touched and had no gap at all. But Daves where ok so its very Hit and miss for some reason
Posted 13th Oct 2010 at 11:34
daveyboy

aka Jim Davey

Location: Southampton

Registered: 01 Oct 2007

Posts: 8,648

Status: Offline

Post #188
midlife wrote:
I thought filing the ring gaps went out of the window 20 years ago????
If memory serves me right you should use a diamond file for this job.
WTF are Wossner playing at supplying rings that are the wrong size for the bores the pistons were designed to fit intoDunno
As for ring gap positions the top two are diametrically opposite, the two thin rings either side of the oil scraper ring IMO are not there to aid compression but to stop the scraper ring from waring the top & bottom of the ring groove as it rotates? Anyway the gaps have been installed 90 degrees either side of the gap on the second ring down.
f*ck me do I really need to take the pistons out & check all the gaps? I assume the gap needs to be approx 0.004" or 0.10mm working of roughly 0.001" gap per inch of piston??

Doh


They are purposely supplied with extra material so the engine builder (You) can finish them to the exact size required. It's not a failing or Laziness on Wossners part, it's so you can make up for any slight machining discrepancies in the individual bores. A fine carborundum stone works very well if a little slowly, thats why a ring grinder is a luxury, but they are expensive for a one use only tool, so I did mine the labour intensive way. Don't forget we are talking tiny ammounts of material bieng removed here.

________________________________________

R H Davey Welding Supplies. I sell new and used welding equipment in the Hampshire area. I take on welding jobs in the evenings, ally casting repairs are one of my specialities but I can weld pretty much anything. PM me with your requirements.

Some of my services: (See my for sale threads)
Engine mount/chassis repair
Solid Beam Mounts BACK IN PRODUCTION
Harness bars
Posted 13th Oct 2010 at 15:30
daveyboy

aka Jim Davey

Location: Southampton

Registered: 01 Oct 2007

Posts: 8,648

Status: Offline

Post #189
According to my book, and you may need to adjust these as you are on the next oversize but as a guide:

Top ring gap 86.0mm Bore 0.36mm

Second ring gap 86.0mm Bore 0.30mm

If in doubt, try contacting PEC and see if they have any suggested figures.

________________________________________

R H Davey Welding Supplies. I sell new and used welding equipment in the Hampshire area. I take on welding jobs in the evenings, ally casting repairs are one of my specialities but I can weld pretty much anything. PM me with your requirements.

Some of my services: (See my for sale threads)
Engine mount/chassis repair
Solid Beam Mounts BACK IN PRODUCTION
Harness bars
Posted 13th Oct 2010 at 15:37
lewisdmz

Senior User

Location: plymouth

Registered: 25 Jul 2009

Posts: 504

Status: Offline

Post #190
Just read through this from the start. Nice work, bet you can't wait to get it back on the road.
Posted 13th Oct 2010 at 17:49
daveyboy

aka Jim Davey

Location: Southampton

Registered: 01 Oct 2007

Posts: 8,648

Status: Offline

Post #191
Right, I dug out the ARP instruction sheet that came with my rods.

Here is the highlights:

Use ARP rod lubricant on the threads and face of the bolt

ARP reccommends using the stretch method for torquing bolts. Follow instructions for using a stretch guage. Stretch bolts to .0058-.0062.

If you do not have a stretch guage, follow these steps using the ARP moly assembly lube. Aftre rods are installed into the motor, torque bolts up to 45 ft lbs. Loosen the bolts. Torque to 45 ft lbs again. Loosen the bolts and torque to 45 ft lbs for a third and final time.

A log should be kept of the original non-torqued length of each bolt. Bolts that have any permanent deformation or have increased in non-torqued length should be replaced.

________________________________________

R H Davey Welding Supplies. I sell new and used welding equipment in the Hampshire area. I take on welding jobs in the evenings, ally casting repairs are one of my specialities but I can weld pretty much anything. PM me with your requirements.

Some of my services: (See my for sale threads)
Engine mount/chassis repair
Solid Beam Mounts BACK IN PRODUCTION
Harness bars
Posted 7th Dec 2010 at 23:44
midlife

Seasoned Pro

Location: Colne, Lancashire

Registered: 13 Mar 2006

Posts: 7,544

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Post #192
Thanks for your advice ladsThumbs up

So were saying
Ring gaps, top 0,36mm, next one down 0,30mm.
ARP L19 conrod bolt torque 45 ftlbs

Does everyone concur?

Cool

________________________________________

Get used to seeing the yellow one !!!MehMehMehMehMeh
Team 330™Cool
Team "no front end or engine"
Team "LIMITED EDITION" I live for the 306 stickerSmug
Team 0-60 in 6.44 & standing qtr in 14.808 @ 94.55mph all with std engineSmug
203bhp Corolla T-Sport daily driver stealthier than Kwai Chang Caine
Posted 14th Oct 2010 at 02:37
phillipm

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Location: Rotherham

Registered: 15 Oct 2006

Posts: 20,607

Status: Offline

Post #193
Double check with Rich, but it's usual to go another .05mm bigger on the ring gaps with boosted engines - and that's at less boost than you're running.

________________________________________

- Bespoke rollcages/additions/adjustments. Half cages right up to complete custom spaceframes - MSA/FIA spec, CDS, ROPT, T45, etc - PM me
Email me!
Custom-made polybushes available - need an odd size or fitment? - anything from batch work to one-off pieces.
Posted 14th Oct 2010 at 02:40
daveyboy

aka Jim Davey

Location: Southampton

Registered: 01 Oct 2007

Posts: 8,648

Status: Offline

Post #194
Sounds like 0.40 and 0.36 respectively would be about right then(But get confirmation first). You want the smallest gap you can safely get away with as radial wear will only cause the gap to get bigger over time. Obviously you want it to make good compression for as long as possible so the closer you can get to the minimum safe gap the better. Not that you will loose much power from a bigger ring gap, but every little helps.

________________________________________

R H Davey Welding Supplies. I sell new and used welding equipment in the Hampshire area. I take on welding jobs in the evenings, ally casting repairs are one of my specialities but I can weld pretty much anything. PM me with your requirements.

Some of my services: (See my for sale threads)
Engine mount/chassis repair
Solid Beam Mounts BACK IN PRODUCTION
Harness bars
Posted 14th Oct 2010 at 03:38
phillipm

Seasoned Pro

Location: Rotherham

Registered: 15 Oct 2006

Posts: 20,607

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Post #195
It's the emissions that tends to suffer more than anything tbh.

________________________________________

- Bespoke rollcages/additions/adjustments. Half cages right up to complete custom spaceframes - MSA/FIA spec, CDS, ROPT, T45, etc - PM me
Email me!
Custom-made polybushes available - need an odd size or fitment? - anything from batch work to one-off pieces.
Posted 14th Oct 2010 at 03:40
midlife

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Location: Colne, Lancashire

Registered: 13 Mar 2006

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Post #196
I've found this

http://www.wiseco.com/PDFs/Manuals/RingEndGap.pdf

Using their calculation chart
86.5 bore = 3.4"
Moderate turbo/nitrous = 0.005"
so 3.4 x 0.005 = 0.017"
x 25.4 = 0.43mm for the top ring

Moderate turbo/nitrous = 0.0055"
so 3.4 x 0.0055 = 0.0187"
x 25.4 = 0.475mm for the second ring

I think that sounds more like it, I far prefer to see how the gap has been calculated!

Cool

________________________________________

Get used to seeing the yellow one !!!MehMehMehMehMeh
Team 330™Cool
Team "no front end or engine"
Team "LIMITED EDITION" I live for the 306 stickerSmug
Team 0-60 in 6.44 & standing qtr in 14.808 @ 94.55mph all with std engineSmug
203bhp Corolla T-Sport daily driver stealthier than Kwai Chang Caine
Posted 14th Oct 2010 at 04:20
daveyboy

aka Jim Davey

Location: Southampton

Registered: 01 Oct 2007

Posts: 8,648

Status: Offline

Post #197
I thought the 2nd ring gap was supposed to be tighter tan the 1st?

________________________________________

R H Davey Welding Supplies. I sell new and used welding equipment in the Hampshire area. I take on welding jobs in the evenings, ally casting repairs are one of my specialities but I can weld pretty much anything. PM me with your requirements.

Some of my services: (See my for sale threads)
Engine mount/chassis repair
Solid Beam Mounts BACK IN PRODUCTION
Harness bars
Posted 14th Oct 2010 at 04:29
midlife

Seasoned Pro

Location: Colne, Lancashire

Registered: 13 Mar 2006

Posts: 7,544

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Post #198
According to the PDF the second ring gap should always be bigger than the top ring gap to help reduce top ring lifting & flutterDunno

Cool

________________________________________

Get used to seeing the yellow one !!!MehMehMehMehMeh
Team 330™Cool
Team "no front end or engine"
Team "LIMITED EDITION" I live for the 306 stickerSmug
Team 0-60 in 6.44 & standing qtr in 14.808 @ 94.55mph all with std engineSmug
203bhp Corolla T-Sport daily driver stealthier than Kwai Chang Caine
Posted 14th Oct 2010 at 04:46
daveyboy

aka Jim Davey

Location: Southampton

Registered: 01 Oct 2007

Posts: 8,648

Status: Offline

Post #199
Peugeots own specs show the lower ring gap bieng tighter. My Guy Croft workshp manual suggests that bigger ring gaps for Turbo and Supercharged are unneccessary.
Have you thought of contacting Wossner directly to get a difinitive answer?

________________________________________

R H Davey Welding Supplies. I sell new and used welding equipment in the Hampshire area. I take on welding jobs in the evenings, ally casting repairs are one of my specialities but I can weld pretty much anything. PM me with your requirements.

Some of my services: (See my for sale threads)
Engine mount/chassis repair
Solid Beam Mounts BACK IN PRODUCTION
Harness bars
Posted 14th Oct 2010 at 05:44
daveyboy

aka Jim Davey

Location: Southampton

Registered: 01 Oct 2007

Posts: 8,648

Status: Offline

Post #200
midlife wrote:

I struggled getting the caps off on the bench, it's going to be near on impossible on the crank!
Cool


It's easy, undo the rod bolts about four turns, then tap them gently and evenly with a soft faced hammer and it will pop the caps off a treat Wink

________________________________________

R H Davey Welding Supplies. I sell new and used welding equipment in the Hampshire area. I take on welding jobs in the evenings, ally casting repairs are one of my specialities but I can weld pretty much anything. PM me with your requirements.

Some of my services: (See my for sale threads)
Engine mount/chassis repair
Solid Beam Mounts BACK IN PRODUCTION
Harness bars
Posted 14th Oct 2010 at 05:51

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