Daveyboy's Rallye Race car - Projects Forum - Peugeot 306 GTi-6 & Rallye Owners Club

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Subject: Daveyboy's Rallye Race car

daveyboy

aka Jim Davey

Location: Southampton

Registered: 01 Oct 2007

Posts: 8,648

Status: Offline

Post #276

Bad news is that the car makes 179.0 bhp [EDIT] (At the flyweel) 152 ft/lbs of torque and I am more than a little dissapointed to say the least. All credit to the guys at Track and Road, they know their stuff, it would appear that the car hasnt had uprated cams and I have had my expectations built up based upon an inflated power figure attained previously on another firms rollers.

So it would appear that with a decat, std. cams and a set of 45mm bodies 179 bhp is not a bad figure, at least I know there is more to come from fitting cams etc. in the future.

So now I'll be on the lookout for a set of PT82's some vernier pulleys, and a few other engine internals, watch this space...

________________________________________

R H Davey Welding Supplies. I sell new and used welding equipment in the Hampshire area. I take on welding jobs in the evenings, ally casting repairs are one of my specialities but I can weld pretty much anything. PM me with your requirements.

Some of my services: (See my for sale threads)
Engine mount/chassis repair
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Posted 3rd Jun 2009 at 13:31

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chris with a pug

Seasoned Pro

Location: Southampton

Registered: 16 Feb 2003

Posts: 5,366

Status: Offline

Post #277

Has Liam/chris still got that set for sale?

Posted 3rd Jun 2009 at 03:49

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daveyboy

aka Jim Davey

Location: Southampton

Registered: 01 Oct 2007

Posts: 8,648

Status: Offline

Post #278

Possibly mate, but spending is temporarily on hold, kinda wishing I'd gone low boost S/C instead of bodies now... Sad

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Posted 3rd Jun 2009 at 03:51

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rikky 🦔

Location: cheshire

Registered: 28 Feb 2004

Posts: 26,796

Status: Offline

Post #279

still.. the noise...

________________________________________

306 rallye reproduction decals (full sets/individual decals) | 306 b-pillar textured vinyl weatherstrips
306 slam panel esso stickers | 306 yellow / orange / pension fund red side door badges
gti6 inlet manifold badges | 306 rear boot badges (p2/p3)
winner of Extraction of toys from prams with outstanding vigour award 2009 [source: gti6 owners club]

Posted 3rd Jun 2009 at 04:24

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welshpug!

Capt Pedantic

Location: Bigend, Wales.

Registered: 27 Mar 2007

Posts: 25,839

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Post #280

you're not happy with 179 ATW ? that's pretty much over 200 bhp @ Flywheel.

guess you don't know what spec the cams and pistons are then?

________________________________________

need a part number? get on here - http://public.servicebox.peugeot.com

Bring on the Trumpets.

Posted 3rd Jun 2009 at 05:03

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chris with a pug

Seasoned Pro

Location: Southampton

Registered: 16 Feb 2003

Posts: 5,366

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Post #281

I thnk he ment 179 at the fly wheel, thats what he said when he text me earlier,

Posted 3rd Jun 2009 at 05:25

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daveyboy

aka Jim Davey

Location: Southampton

Registered: 01 Oct 2007

Posts: 8,648

Status: Offline

Post #282

chris with a pug wrote:

I thnk he ment 179 at the fly wheel, thats what he said when he text me earlier,

Yeah, my mistake, 179.0 at the fly Sad

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Posted 3rd Jun 2009 at 05:43

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phillipm

Seasoned Pro

Location: Rotherham

Registered: 15 Oct 2006

Posts: 20,607

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Post #283

Ouch

________________________________________

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Posted 3rd Jun 2009 at 05:43

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daveyboy

aka Jim Davey

Location: Southampton

Registered: 01 Oct 2007

Posts: 8,648

Status: Offline

Post #284

rikky wrote:

still.. the noise...

Noise alone is not worth 1,200 beer tokens... LOL

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Posted 3rd Jun 2009 at 05:44

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daveyboy

aka Jim Davey

Location: Southampton

Registered: 01 Oct 2007

Posts: 8,648

Status: Offline

Post #285

phillipm wrote:

Ouch

yep

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Posted 3rd Jun 2009 at 05:49

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phillipm

Seasoned Pro

Location: Rotherham

Registered: 15 Oct 2006

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Post #286

Much gain in the midrange or the same story there?

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Posted 3rd Jun 2009 at 05:59

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daveyboy

aka Jim Davey

Location: Southampton

Registered: 01 Oct 2007

Posts: 8,648

Status: Offline

Post #287

I'll take some pictures of the dyno sheets from previous runs and todays, and post them up tomorrow, I have a horrible feeling I have had no real gain over the standard intake plenum Shock

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Posted 3rd Jun 2009 at 06:03

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welshpug!

Capt Pedantic

Location: Bigend, Wales.

Registered: 27 Mar 2007

Posts: 25,839

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Post #288

179 atf sounds like stock cams...

in which case, its time for pistons and cams, that'll be another k on parts Doh

________________________________________

need a part number? get on here - http://public.servicebox.peugeot.com

Bring on the Trumpets.

Posted 3rd Jun 2009 at 14:37

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daveyboy

aka Jim Davey

Location: Southampton

Registered: 01 Oct 2007

Posts: 8,648

Status: Offline

Post #289

welshpug! wrote:

179 atf sounds like stock cams...

in which case, its time for pistons and cams, that'll be another k on parts Doh

Marvelous

________________________________________

Posted 3rd Jun 2009 at 16:25

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willygti

Seasoned Pro

Location: Exeter

Registered: 08 Oct 2007

Posts: 5,024

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Post #290

hard luck mate - but at the end of the day you have an amazingly minty car with tb's which is my ultimate goal for mine so you're already the envy of me. with cams you'll be sorted plus you'll be shooting flames like no tommorrow. Devil

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Posted 4th Jun 2009 at 15:13

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fletch

Track Head

Location: The nearest Shell garage

Registered: 12 Jun 2004

Posts: 12,273

Status: Offline

Post #291

PT82s foul on the oil spray bars I believe, so you'll need to come up with a solution if using those cams.

Posted 4th Jun 2009 at 15:23

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welshpug!

Capt Pedantic

Location: Bigend, Wales.

Registered: 27 Mar 2007

Posts: 25,839

Status: Offline

Post #292

either mod them to clear or do away with them and block the holes Wink

or choose ones with a slightly smaller base circle...

________________________________________

need a part number? get on here - http://public.servicebox.peugeot.com

Bring on the Trumpets.

Posted 4th Jun 2009 at 17:14

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millic333

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Location: Clapham, London

Registered: 01 Nov 2007

Posts: 2,071

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Post #293

179 without cams is pretty darn good!

Should see over 200 with decent cams. Looking forward to seeing you part with another k so i can see how the progress goes! Whistle

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Posted 4th Jun 2009 at 17:50

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daveyboy

aka Jim Davey

Location: Southampton

Registered: 01 Oct 2007

Posts: 8,648

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Post #294

I really would'nt mind that it's not making good power, it's just it drives just like it did when I had that awful modified plenum I made in it. Gutless down low then you get it all at the top end, but it's too little too late.

Getting off the line in a hurry is hard work with so little torque (having the lightened flywheel does me no favours there either) and a 10 bhp gain with what feels like quite a big drop in midrange power and torque has left me with a rather unsatisfying drive.

Here are the Dyno printouts, take the figure fro Regal with a pinch of salt because I can se no way it was achieving that figure having seen what it makes now.

Before:

After:

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Posted 5th Jun 2009 at 03:00

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rich_w

Seasoned Pro

Location: Havant, Hampshire

Registered: 29 Jul 2004

Posts: 5,412

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Post #295

It may not be as bad as you think Jim

Look at the wheel HP figures.

Regal is 139 - this is regarded as pretty much spot on for a standard '6.

The Track 'N' Road graph shows 164 @ the wheels.

So you've gained 25 BHP at the wheels - sounds alright to me? Unsure

There maybe many reasons for the vast differences in engine BHP / theoretical transmission losses.

It's often down to the dyno and the software that's used with it.

Some dyno's like Bosch will measure coastdown losses, and add this to the measured dyno HP. This is the better way to calcualte theoretical transmission losses.

Some like Dyno Dynamics add on a flat-rate percentage, normally 15-20%. Which is obviously a load of rubbish.

If you ever manage to speak to Wayne Schofield he will be able to tell you much more about it:

chipwizard wrote:

Things that affect wheel power v flywheel power readings...

Tranmission drag (oil type, temp, clearances, wear etc...) Driveshaft drag (you see small changes to this with different ride hights and thus, shaft angles)

Mostly... tyres. Make, type, width, compound, pressure, temperature, toe, camber (the roller contact patch is not at the bottom of the tyre so camber causes scrub of course) etc.

Roller diameter (smaller rollers cause greater tyre deflection and thus, greater losses) and roller separation as the car sits deeper into the rollers if they are further apart and this causes greater losses (with improved grip)

________________________________________

Contact Details:

rich@lynxpowerengineering.co.uk
07732 822546

Posted 5th Jun 2009 at 03:48

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daveyboy

aka Jim Davey

Location: Southampton

Registered: 01 Oct 2007

Posts: 8,648

Status: Offline

Post #296

Thanks Rich, I suppose it's not too bad when you look at it like that. I can't help but wonder If I have gone for the wrong length trumpets, I'll measure the inlet tract on the plenum chamber tomorrow and compare it to the TB setup I have now.

If I have replicated the length I had with my modified inlet (which performed very poorly) then I may well have transferred the problem to the TB setup I have now.

________________________________________

Posted 5th Jun 2009 at 04:06

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rich_w

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Location: Havant, Hampshire

Registered: 29 Jul 2004

Posts: 5,412

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Post #297

The trumpet length won't make a huge amount of difference to the overall power - i.e. the area under the curve.

It will change the delivery though; shorter trumpets with make more power, higher up the rev range, although you will lose some low end power/torque.

Increasing the length of the trumpets has the opposite effect - you will bring peak power and torque lower down the rev range.

Smile

________________________________________

Contact Details:

rich@lynxpowerengineering.co.uk
07732 822546

Posted 5th Jun 2009 at 04:15

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daveyboy

aka Jim Davey

Location: Southampton

Registered: 01 Oct 2007

Posts: 8,648

Status: Offline

Post #298

Best way to see if it's any good is to find out if I can roast any standard 6's at Rockingham next weekend! Ninja

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Posted 5th Jun 2009 at 04:24

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phillipm

Seasoned Pro

Location: Rotherham

Registered: 15 Oct 2006

Posts: 20,607

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Post #299

6's drop off from not having enough flow from the cam profile higher up the range anyway, so longer trumpets might not be a bad compromise, the extra air mass might work fairly well to negate some of the effects of the longer trumpets up top, and knocking a little of that blip from the harmonics at 5500rpm further down should fill the midrange in a bit.

You can get spacers cheaply for the trumpets on jenveys, can't remember who does them though, to alter the intake length in varied amounts for trail & error work.

You really should have the inlet cam timing matched to the intake length either way though. Dunno

How long is your inlet tract length at the minute?

More importantly, what did the arse dyno say before it was influenced by the rollers?

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Posted 5th Jun 2009 at 05:11

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daveyboy

aka Jim Davey

Location: Southampton

Registered: 01 Oct 2007

Posts: 8,648

Status: Offline

Post #300

phillipm wrote:

How long is your inlet tract length at the minute?

More importantly, what did the arse dyno say before it was influenced by the rollers?

I'll have a measure of the inlet length today, the old bum dyno was telling me that the car felt 'flat' before the map/dyno session, but I put that down to the fact that it was running on the basemap.

After the map though I have to say apart from the engine running smoother I could'nt feel much of a differnce in acceleration.

________________________________________

Posted 5th Jun 2009 at 13:39

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