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Author Subject: cages, buckets and harnesses
Chr1sch

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Post #1
Hi gents

Question...

The more research I do, the more i get confused as to the general consensus on this...

So i picked up 2 Sparco buckets for a reasonable amount of money recently, they're great but they arent FIA approved race seats, and therefore dont have the hole in the base for a 5th buckle...

And so to my dilemma...i've read the following recently:

1) Anything less than 5 points are dangerous due to 'submarining' (ie. the process of bending like a banana and sliding out under the bottom of the harness belt)

2) You shouldnt run harnesses without a cage as the harnesses keep you rigid in the seat and should you roll over your head becomes the bit the roof will collapse on and you cant get out of the way...

So right now I have concluded i'm better off running standard seat belts with the buckets until i can afford FIA seats, a cage and harnesses, does that sound about right/logical? (I guess thats no different to just going on a trackday with normal seats/belts as most people do?!)

Cheers

Chris
Posted 4th Sep 2014 at 10:03
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welshpug!

Capt Pedantic

Location: Bigend, Wales.

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Post #2
I would run std seats if its std belts.

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Posted 4th Sep 2014 at 10:06
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rikky 🦔

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Post #3
generally speaking you shouldn't be driving a car with a cage without a helmet but everyone does

is it a road car or purely track, or both?

you'll get different opinion to be honest. no harnesses without buckets / a cage. no cage without a helmet. etc

i ran normal belts in a standard road car, with adjustable bucket seats

i ran harnesses without a cage for a short while

i ran harnesses with a proper weld-in cage, and drove it without a helmet on the road

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Posted 4th Sep 2014 at 10:33
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demondriverdan

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Post #4
I ran semi-buckets and 4 point harnesses when the race car was just a track car, wasn't that bothered about it. 4 points aren't the greatest but I don't think they're the end of the world. 5 or 6 point is clearly better but I'd rather go on track in a 4 point than with a standard belt.

I definitely wouldn't drive a caged car without a helmet though, even with padding on the bars. It's just too close to my head to be safe.

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Posted 4th Sep 2014 at 10:15
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pebbles167

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Post #5
In my Rallye I have a cage fitted and Corbeau Revolution seats. It would be bloody difficult to get my head near the cage, but still. I imagine if your head did contact it in a crash you'd be brown bread.

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Posted 4th Sep 2014 at 11:47
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welshpug!

Capt Pedantic

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Post #6
Fit the seats correctly and your head wont be near the cage

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Posted 4th Sep 2014 at 11:45
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pebbles167

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Post #7
You'd be just as likeky to die in a cageless car I expect.

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Posted 4th Sep 2014 at 11:48
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Chr1sch

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Post #8
Thanks gents, i'll hang fire on cages etc...

The seats however, are designed to run with a standard buckle (they came with buckles with extended necks to ensure at no point was the belt running over the seat frame)

They are a vast improvement on the frankly woeful standard seats not just in terms of support but equally weight.

They are Sparco one's so i'd like to think well made etc.

Its tricky, i want it to be a road legal track car - what are peoples thoughts on Harness bars? I've read quite a few positive comments on them, but the roof on my head analogy somewhat put me off...
Posted 4th Sep 2014 at 12:08
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prism7guy

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Post #9
I can't get my head anywhere near my cage when my harnesses are done up. As for bannana-ing, I can't see it being a huge issue if you tighten them correctly. Tighten the waist ones first so the buckle is as low as possible then do the shoulder straps.

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Posted 4th Sep 2014 at 12:09
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welshpug!

Capt Pedantic

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Post #10
how high are the sides of those seats if the standard belt will work? a std belt would get nowhere near me in any bucket seat I've sat in.

I am a skinny bugger mind LOL

Harness bars need to be attached to the cage, having it elsewhere is dangerous IMO.

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Posted 4th Sep 2014 at 12:21
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Chr1sch

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Post #11
Apologies for the crappy pic from ebay but you get the idea here:



It uses the standard belt but the buckles came with them and reach to the top of the thigh support
Posted 4th Sep 2014 at 12:36
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Chr1sch

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Post #12
this is the harness bar thing i was referring to - seem to be very popular in the 'jap' scene..

http://image.importtuner.com/f/features/impp_1005_sti_vs_evo/32673093/impp_1005_10_o%2Bevo%2Bharness_bar.jpg
Posted 4th Sep 2014 at 12:39
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braymond

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Post #13
I can't see the risk of submarining or having your head stoved in by the roof is increased with buckets and 4point harnesses over normal seats and seatbelts.

Of course 5/6 point with a full cage and a helmet would be better/safer, but that isn't to say buckets and 4 points are inherently dangerous

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Posted 4th Sep 2014 at 13:16
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dangti6

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Post #14
Are those seats metal framed? They aren't likely to be very comfortable for a lengthy drive.

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    • Posted 4th Sep 2014 at 13:18
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    allanallen

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    Post #15
    If you were to use a standard belt with those seats I wouldn't use those w**ky extended buckles! You'd need to remove the belt from the floor and pass it through the hole then pass it through the other hole to the buckle/catch when your in it. That way it's actually touching your lap!

    It's your car so do as you please, I don't like being strapped in a car without a cage but on the other hand I use a 4 point harness, buckets and cage in my road rally car without a helmet.
    I think the whole not wearing a helmet when you've got a cage fitted argument is bloody stupid.

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    Posted 4th Sep 2014 at 13:20
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    aaron6

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    Post #16
    Harness bars are fine if made and fitted well. Here's the one I made and fitted to stillys rallye.







    I turned up fittings and welded them front and back so they'll never come out and maximum thread in them and mounted tye bar as high as possible to keep the harnesses as flat as I could so in the event of a big crash daves spine wouldn't compress.

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    Posted 4th Sep 2014 at 13:30
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    aaron6

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    Post #17
    Some more.

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    Posted 4th Sep 2014 at 13:31
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    Chr1sch

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    Post #18
    allanallen wrote:
    If you were to use a standard belt with those seats I wouldn't use those w**ky extended buckles! You'd need to remove the belt from the floor and pass it through the hole then pass it through the other hole to the buckle/catch when your in it. That way it's actually touching your lap!

    It's your car so do as you please, I don't like being strapped in a car without a cage but on the other hand I use a 4 point harness, buckets and cage in my road rally car without a helmet.
    I think the whole not wearing a helmet when you've got a cage fitted argument is bloody stupid.


    Ok cool I'll give that a try thanks for the tip, I'm tall and round ish so it touches my lap anyway lol

    That harness bar looks very neat, how much would you charge to do another one?!
    Posted 4th Sep 2014 at 14:21
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    Chr1sch

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    Post #19
    dangti6 wrote:
    Are those seats metal framed? They aren't likely to be very comfortable for a lengthy drive.


    Yes they are indeed, it's meant to be a cheapish project so couldn't really justify the expenditure on anything Kevlar etc. maybe in due course, that said I've driven it a fair bit and find them very good!
    Posted 4th Sep 2014 at 14:23
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    phillipm

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    Post #20
    Nothing wrong with 4-points if they're done up correctly, problem is, most people just haul on the shoulder straps until they're tight and end up with the buckle where their belly button is - no good, you need to tighten down the bottom straps hard first, so the buckle is sat right on your pelvis.

    Cage + helmet? - well, depends what your seating position is like and how tight your cage fits to the car, if there's a chance of hitting your head it can be worse than not having the cage in the first place, such as Prism7gusy is fitted so tight to the a-pillars and roof you couldn't get a cig paper in between them, so he's not got much of an issue.

    I wouldn't run harnesses without a cage though, use the normal belt, unbolt the end and pass it through the seat loops if you have buckets so it fits your lap properly.

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    Posted 4th Sep 2014 at 15:58
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    Chr1sch

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    Post #21
    I will indeed, thanks guys this has been invaluable!
    Posted 4th Sep 2014 at 16:07
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    buzzbrightyear

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    Post #22
    I wouldn't want to be strapped in without a cage, it's true about your head stopping the roof, before your neck gives in and snaps severing your spinal cord, windpipe and arteries, spilling out several pints of blood all over and ruining your nice new bucket seats.

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    Posted 5th Sep 2014 at 21:20
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    Cjwatson27

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    Post #23
    I imagine there being safety issues with the harness bar surely if you were in a big rear end shunt your belts could loosen

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    Posted 5th Sep 2014 at 23:05
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    yippeekayay

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    Post #24
    buy my shell with harness bar in it...

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    Posted 5th Sep 2014 at 23:53
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    prism7guy

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    Post #25
    buzzbrightyear wrote:
    before your neck gives in and snaps severing your spinal cord, windpipe and arteries, spilling out several pints of blood all over and ruining your nice new bucket seats.


    I find it really inconvenient when that happens.

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    Posted 5th Sep 2014 at 23:54
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