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Ph1 306 GTi 6 | RX8 231 S1 | YBR 125 Cafe Racer | MT-03 660
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Author | Subject: Peogeot 306 GTI 6 Handling - Understeering and how to Kill It |
24seven
Seasoned Pro Location: Derby Registered: 05 Oct 2005 Posts: 6,221 Status: Offline |
Post #51
If you stiffen the ARB you'll increase the roll stiffness and put more weight on the outside front wheel, which means less weight in the inside front, meaning a greater load split and a reduction in grip. If you've lowered and stiffened the front already, the stiffer springs will have increased the roll stiffness producing the same effect. You either want a stiffer rear roll bar, stiffer rear torsion bars or a softer front roll bar to correct the balance shift you have put in, and of those the easiest and cheapest fit is to disconnect the front roll bar until you can afford/get round to stiffening the rear torsion bars, which would be the ideal solution. ________________________________________ Ph1 306 GTi 6 | RX8 231 S1 | YBR 125 Cafe Racer | MT-03 660 |
Posted 1st Oct 2012 at 17:19
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daveyboy
aka Jim Davey Location: Southampton Registered: 01 Oct 2007 Posts: 8,648 Status: Offline |
Post #52
Sort the front end first, this is where 70% of the weight is and where the major sources of under steer are. ________________________________________ R H Davey Welding Supplies. I sell new and used welding equipment in the Hampshire area. I take on welding jobs in the evenings, ally casting repairs are one of my specialities but I can weld pretty much anything. PM me with your requirements.Some of my services: (See my for sale threads) Engine mount/chassis repair Solid Beam Mounts BACK IN PRODUCTION Harness bars |
Posted 1st Oct 2012 at 19:12
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miles
Seasoned Pro Location: Ringwood Registered: 28 Dec 2002 Posts: 3,433 Status: Offline |
Post #53
Here's another one for you, Try driving the car differently, I know I can with std car's or even race spec car's get them where I want them within reason unless your going testing and have a huge budget you need some mid ground to go fromHope that doesn't sound to funny ________________________________________ 306 Rallye Sptint/Race Car, 205 CTI 1.9 8v to name a fewRoad, Track and Race/Rally car preparation to your personal requirements, Full Workshop & Diagnostic Facilities New and Second parts, from Plugs to Turbo's We now also carry out Routine Servicing www.pugracing.com & FB Page, https://www.facebook.com/PugRacing Ebay; http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Pug-Racing-Shop 2012/2013/2014/2019 Class Winners at Gurston Down Speed Hillclimb & Joint overall, Class record too along the way, |
Posted 1st Oct 2012 at 21:22
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rich306
Seasoned Pro Location: Portsmouth Registered: 09 Aug 2009 Posts: 1,834 Status: Offline |
Post #54
Explain to us how differently? ________________________________________ Richies Project RallyeElectrical work carried out in Portsmouth jamiek_uk2000 wrote: - Top Tip!!! You'll need to throw money at the car. Not on parts. Just stand near your car and throw loose change at it, I find this increases performance for a short period of time |
Posted 2nd Oct 2012 at 08:41
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miles
Seasoned Pro Location: Ringwood Registered: 28 Dec 2002 Posts: 3,433 Status: Offline |
Post #55
Every case is different as we all drive differently, The best way to get the most out of a car on track if you have never raced etc is to get some instruction (I know we in the UK are not overly keen on this, having worked in mainland Europe you see a huge difference), you'll get far more out of a car this way, Even in std form than by bolting on anything________________________________________ 306 Rallye Sptint/Race Car, 205 CTI 1.9 8v to name a fewRoad, Track and Race/Rally car preparation to your personal requirements, Full Workshop & Diagnostic Facilities New and Second parts, from Plugs to Turbo's We now also carry out Routine Servicing www.pugracing.com & FB Page, https://www.facebook.com/PugRacing Ebay; http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Pug-Racing-Shop 2012/2013/2014/2019 Class Winners at Gurston Down Speed Hillclimb & Joint overall, Class record too along the way, |
Posted 2nd Oct 2012 at 11:47
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24seven
Seasoned Pro Location: Derby Registered: 05 Oct 2005 Posts: 6,221 Status: Offline |
Post #56
rich306 wrote: Explain to us how differently? Trailbraking for one. Brake later and continue braking as you begin to turn in. It's one of those things that you're explicitly told NEVER to do by a driving instructor, but on a racetrack it's a technique allowing you to brake later into a corner. ________________________________________ Ph1 306 GTi 6 | RX8 231 S1 | YBR 125 Cafe Racer | MT-03 660 |
Posted 2nd Oct 2012 at 22:11
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aaron6
Seasoned Pro Location: On the sofa in maidstone Registered: 16 May 2006 Posts: 5,840 Status: Offline |
Post #57
Abs helps to make this a safer practice. ________________________________________ See the sheer power and might of the lesser known burrowing owl. |
Posted 2nd Oct 2012 at 22:45
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fatlapit
Seasoned Pro Location: STOCKSFIELD Registered: 02 Nov 2010 Posts: 3,040 Status: Offline |
Post #58
Abs is for pussys________________________________________ |
Posted 2nd Oct 2012 at 22:47
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welshpug!
Capt Pedantic Location: Bigend, Wales. Registered: 27 Mar 2007 Posts: 25,838 Status: Offline |
Post #59
naah, lets you concentrate on steering and throttle and gears.________________________________________ need a part number? get on here - http://public.servicebox.peugeot.comBring on the Trumpets. |
Posted 2nd Oct 2012 at 22:51
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daveyboy
aka Jim Davey Location: Southampton Registered: 01 Oct 2007 Posts: 8,648 Status: Offline |
Post #60
aaron6 wrote: Abs helps to make this a safer practice. ABS can be very counterproductive on a track car, yes it enables you to make effective steering inputs even when on the verge of locking up, but it also can make the car push wide as the rear tyres maintain too much grip causing understeer, not a fan of ABS on a track focused car. Great on the road, personally I don't want it on track. ________________________________________ R H Davey Welding Supplies. I sell new and used welding equipment in the Hampshire area. I take on welding jobs in the evenings, ally casting repairs are one of my specialities but I can weld pretty much anything. PM me with your requirements.Some of my services: (See my for sale threads) Engine mount/chassis repair Solid Beam Mounts BACK IN PRODUCTION Harness bars |
Posted 2nd Oct 2012 at 23:22
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daveyboy
aka Jim Davey Location: Southampton Registered: 01 Oct 2007 Posts: 8,648 Status: Offline |
Post #61
Somebody once explained tyre grip to me like this. If you brake or accelerate in a straight line and are working the tyre so hard that it is using or near using all of its grip (100%) to maintain traction and you do something else that requires grip such as turning then you need more grip, as the tyre can only provide 100% then something has to give, assuming you don't lift off the throttle or lessen the steering angle the result is the same, slip or understeer. So I found that one way of making smooth progress is to meter out the inputs smoothly this enables tyres (which react badly to violent inputs) to load up and grip before you start asking them to perform. For instance, when approaching a heavy braking zone such as a hairpin at the end of a long straight I find an effective method is to apply the brakes smoothly with relatively little initial pressure but quickly ramping it up to the maximum you feel can apply without locking up (you can feel the front of the car dive, the tyres loading up and the rear going a bit floaty is all indication that you are slowing the car as fast as grip allows) what happens next is critical to avoid generating understeer that once initiated will stay with you right through to corner exit and is all about weight transfer. As you reach the point where braking ends and cornering begins you are going to ask the tyres to change function, so for every bit of steering you want done, they need to do less braking. So smoothly release the brake while simultaneously making your steering input, this will help to control destabilising weight transfer helping your tyres stay flatter on the Tarmac and maintaining more grip. If you make the turn in quick enough whilst trailing the brakes to the apex you should be able to get more turning of the car done before you reach it giving you a straighter run at the exit (I'm assuming a constant radius 180 hairpin here, different corners need different approaches but the gist is valid) From the apex you can apply the same principles to the exit as you did to the entry only in reverse, obviously the goal is to achieve the highest possible exit speed as this will pay dividends all the way down the next straight. This is achievable by getting the front wheels straight and therefore able to give you maximum traction to propel the car forwards as early as you possibly can, to that end, once you've spotted your exit then start feeding in the power while at the same time reducing the steering lock, this should keep the car stable, prevent it running wide and help to control wheelspin on exit. Barreling into a corner way too fast, carrying too much mid corner speed is the perfect recipe for understeer, you miss the apex despite all the steering lock you can throw at the corner, this is usually followed by lighting up the front tyres and continuing the understeer in a untidy wide arc all the way off the road at the exit of the bend, and we've all witnessed this cornering style at trackdays. Get the car slowed down to the point where it can turn in without sliding and the hard part is done. Slow in fast out. The above approach works for me and won't be for everyone, it's s generalisation and is way too over simplistic to cover the different ways to tackle track driving as the variables from driver to driver and car to car are infinite. But at its core is smoothness, and if you work on being smooth on track first, going fast comes along as a handy byproduct. ________________________________________ R H Davey Welding Supplies. I sell new and used welding equipment in the Hampshire area. I take on welding jobs in the evenings, ally casting repairs are one of my specialities but I can weld pretty much anything. PM me with your requirements.Some of my services: (See my for sale threads) Engine mount/chassis repair Solid Beam Mounts BACK IN PRODUCTION Harness bars |
Posted 3rd Oct 2012 at 00:08
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rich306
Seasoned Pro Location: Portsmouth Registered: 09 Aug 2009 Posts: 1,834 Status: Offline |
Post #62
Cheers I was told to use as much of the corner as possible so you have less steering to do. Pretty much the same principles as you've just explained. ________________________________________ Richies Project RallyeElectrical work carried out in Portsmouth jamiek_uk2000 wrote: - Top Tip!!! You'll need to throw money at the car. Not on parts. Just stand near your car and throw loose change at it, I find this increases performance for a short period of time |
Posted 3rd Oct 2012 at 07:45
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miles
Seasoned Pro Location: Ringwood Registered: 28 Dec 2002 Posts: 3,433 Status: Offline |
Post #63
And there I was thinking all he did was make good Tea .... ________________________________________ 306 Rallye Sptint/Race Car, 205 CTI 1.9 8v to name a fewRoad, Track and Race/Rally car preparation to your personal requirements, Full Workshop & Diagnostic Facilities New and Second parts, from Plugs to Turbo's We now also carry out Routine Servicing www.pugracing.com & FB Page, https://www.facebook.com/PugRacing Ebay; http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Pug-Racing-Shop 2012/2013/2014/2019 Class Winners at Gurston Down Speed Hillclimb & Joint overall, Class record too along the way, |
Posted 3rd Oct 2012 at 09:38
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aaron6
Seasoned Pro Location: On the sofa in maidstone Registered: 16 May 2006 Posts: 5,840 Status: Offline |
Post #64
miles wrote: And there I was thinking all he did was make good Tea .... ________________________________________ See the sheer power and might of the lesser known burrowing owl. |
Posted 3rd Oct 2012 at 10:08
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daveyboy
aka Jim Davey Location: Southampton Registered: 01 Oct 2007 Posts: 8,648 Status: Offline |
Post #65
miles wrote: And there I was thinking all he did was make good Tea .... You would'nt let it lie... ________________________________________ R H Davey Welding Supplies. I sell new and used welding equipment in the Hampshire area. I take on welding jobs in the evenings, ally casting repairs are one of my specialities but I can weld pretty much anything. PM me with your requirements.Some of my services: (See my for sale threads) Engine mount/chassis repair Solid Beam Mounts BACK IN PRODUCTION Harness bars |
Posted 3rd Oct 2012 at 10:50
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JimmyC379
Newbie Location: Brisbane Registered: 16 Dec 2011 Posts: 32 Status: Offline |
Post #66
Good advise - that's generally what most good drivers say. Do you guys race your 306's against Meganes like 250Cups and keep up though? My problem is seeing them on my tail and pushing to hard to keep up on the corners cause on the straights they are gone. The corners are the only place a 306 with 170hp can make any ground against faster cars at Queensland Raceway. The problem with alot of the tacks over here is that they are very narrow and with long straights and designed for Holden and Ford V8's and not open wheelers. The slower tracks the 306 is great and I have little trouble with it but with on the higher speed tracks I am really struggling with it. A poor trades man blaims his tools but a poor tradesman with the correct tool still does a good job - meaning correct setup is still very important. daveyboy wrote: Somebody once explained tyre grip to me like this. If you brake or accelerate in a straight line and are working the tyre so hard that it is using or near using all of its grip (100%) to maintain traction and you do something else that requires grip such as turning then you need more grip, as the tyre can only provide 100% then something has to give, assuming you don't lift off the throttle or lessen the steering angle the result is the same, slip or understeer. So I found that one way of making smooth progress is to meter out the inputs smoothly this enables tyres (which react badly to violent inputs) to load up and grip before you start asking them to perform. For instance, when approaching a heavy braking zone such as a hairpin at the end of a long straight I find an effective method is to apply the brakes smoothly with relatively little initial pressure but quickly ramping it up to the maximum you feel can apply without locking up (you can feel the front of the car dive, the tyres loading up and the rear going a bit floaty is all indication that you are slowing the car as fast as grip allows) what happens next is critical to avoid generating understeer that once initiated will stay with you right through to corner exit and is all about weight transfer. As you reach the point where braking ends and cornering begins you are going to ask the tyres to change function, so for every bit of steering you want done, they need to do less braking. So smoothly release the brake while simultaneously making your steering input, this will help to control destabilising weight transfer helping your tyres stay flatter on the Tarmac and maintaining more grip. If you make the turn in quick enough whilst trailing the brakes to the apex you should be able to get more turning of the car done before you reach it giving you a straighter run at the exit (I'm assuming a constant radius 180 hairpin here, different corners need different approaches but the gist is valid) From the apex you can apply the same principles to the exit as you did to the entry only in reverse, obviously the goal is to achieve the highest possible exit speed as this will pay dividends all the way down the next straight. This is achievable by getting the front wheels straight and therefore able to give you maximum traction to propel the car forwards as early as you possibly can, to that end, once you've spotted your exit then start feeding in the power while at the same time reducing the steering lock, this should keep the car stable, prevent it running wide and help to control wheelspin on exit. Barreling into a corner way too fast, carrying too much mid corner speed is the perfect recipe for understeer, you miss the apex despite all the steering lock you can throw at the corner, this is usually followed by lighting up the front tyres and continuing the understeer in a untidy wide arc all the way off the road at the exit of the bend, and we've all witnessed this cornering style at trackdays. Get the car slowed down to the point where it can turn in without sliding and the hard part is done. Slow in fast out. The above approach works for me and won't be for everyone, it's s generalisation and is way too over simplistic to cover the different ways to tackle track driving as the variables from driver to driver and car to car are infinite. But at its core is smoothness, and if you work on being smooth on track first, going fast comes along as a handy byproduct. |
Posted 10th Oct 2012 at 14:16
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daveyboy
aka Jim Davey Location: Southampton Registered: 01 Oct 2007 Posts: 8,648 Status: Offline |
Post #67
Most UK tracks are pretty twisty, lessening the advantage of big power cars. I've found the marshalling to be particularly good at Collerne airfield where I did most of my trackdays and if you're bieng held up in a bend they get the blue flags out, even if the car blows you away in the straights. Fact is if you are catching up in the corners and in a position to be held up then you are faster over all. I had a good tussle with a bog standard Monaro V8, but he was never going to get away on a shortish twisty track, he was having some fun though. The biggest way to close the power gap is to concentrate on line choice and grip so you can carry speed through corners, as a lot of the guys with the powerful cars seem to be point and squirt types, slow in the bends and ballistic down the straights.________________________________________ R H Davey Welding Supplies. I sell new and used welding equipment in the Hampshire area. I take on welding jobs in the evenings, ally casting repairs are one of my specialities but I can weld pretty much anything. PM me with your requirements.Some of my services: (See my for sale threads) Engine mount/chassis repair Solid Beam Mounts BACK IN PRODUCTION Harness bars |
Posted 11th Oct 2012 at 11:20
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24seven
Seasoned Pro Location: Derby Registered: 05 Oct 2005 Posts: 6,221 Status: Offline |
Post #68
daveyboy wrote: Somebody once explained tyre grip to me like this. If you brake or accelerate in a straight line ... = this, in fewer words. In reality it's not quite a circle, but you get the idea. Data loggers can plot readings taken from an on-board accelerometer onto a chart with the same axes as one way of comparing different drivers in the same car. ________________________________________ Ph1 306 GTi 6 | RX8 231 S1 | YBR 125 Cafe Racer | MT-03 660 |
Posted 19th Oct 2012 at 14:46
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eliotrw
Seasoned Pro Location: Southwark Registered: 18 Jul 2010 Posts: 4,864 Status: Offline |
Post #69
I still maintain that your setup is understeer biased. And you need to induce more oversteer to get what you want.You need to stiffen up the rear to do this, Probably with solid mounts, A hybrid/30mm arb and thicker tbs. ________________________________________ Ex- Phase 3 China GTi-6 T-Reg |
Posted 19th Oct 2012 at 14:52
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aaron6
Seasoned Pro Location: On the sofa in maidstone Registered: 16 May 2006 Posts: 5,840 Status: Offline |
Post #70
Solid mounts are not a must. Mine turns in harder on the rubbers than it ever did on the solids and doesn't really understeer. Quite the opposite in fact. But I agree with the stiffness. Needs a chunkier arb and tb's. ________________________________________ See the sheer power and might of the lesser known burrowing owl. |
Posted 19th Oct 2012 at 18:22
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jeffers
Forum Admin Location: Leeds Registered: 14 Dec 2003 Posts: 3,702 Status: Offline |
Post #71
eliotrw wrote: I still maintain that your setup is understeer biased. And you need to induce more oversteer to get what you want. You need to stiffen up the rear to do this, Probably with solid mounts, A hybrid/30mm arb and thicker tbs. My track car has run both rubber rear mounts and solids, I prefer solids but I do believe it's personal preference. The one thing you can't get away from is, if you stiffen up the front and leave the rear it WILL understeer on these cars, you need to stiffen the rear with bigger t'b's and ARB then tune the front to suit. If you just stiffen up the front and leave the rear you'll never get anywhere! Hth ________________________________________ Team Running Engine again!Team Negative Camber! My Budget track engine build thread! Now appearing at a Trackday near you!! |
Posted 19th Oct 2012 at 23:08
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eliotrw
Seasoned Pro Location: Southwark Registered: 18 Jul 2010 Posts: 4,864 Status: Offline |
Post #72
Indeed thats my thoughts as well, and i understand the personal preference thing too. ________________________________________ Ex- Phase 3 China GTi-6 T-Reg |
Posted 20th Oct 2012 at 01:52
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aaron6
Seasoned Pro Location: On the sofa in maidstone Registered: 16 May 2006 Posts: 5,840 Status: Offline |
Post #73
Agreed. ________________________________________ See the sheer power and might of the lesser known burrowing owl. |
Posted 20th Oct 2012 at 10:10
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