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Author Subject: Who's clued up on suspension
pugheaven

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Post #1
Basically iv got my hands on some rear Nitron dampers.

I'll start off by saying that i don't have a clue what car they are designed for or what car they came off.

To cut a long story short they need servicing....
As I have no idea what they are from I wanted them to be serviced and revalved for my car, I phoned Nitron and had a chat with them but to cut a long story short they will service them and revalve them but "i" or someone that is clued up more than me has to do the leg work/maths to work out what I want them valved too.

Iv read a few articles on dampers but it's well over my head....

These are the dampers


And this is the equation that I don't understand....


Can anyone help me out please?
Posted 16th Feb 2017 at 15:26
mocinim

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Post #2
Looks fairly stright forward do you have the current values they are set to
And also the values you wish to achive

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Posted 16th Feb 2017 at 15:31
pugheaven

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Post #3
Nope and not a clue lol

What info do I need to know to be able to give you the answer to what values I want to achieve.

This is all new to me, willing to learn by all means
Posted 16th Feb 2017 at 15:36
mocinim

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Post #4
If you contact peugeot techanical they will be able to provide all the oem figures
Same applies to bilstein for uprated figures
If nitron dont do an actual replacement oe set them that is why they need you to supply figures (would probably cost them to source them)
Pug no longer supply rear dampers for the gti6 but do offer alternatives by way of simular values for forces etc so are usually happy to offer you the figures without to much fuss

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Posted 16th Feb 2017 at 15:43
RetroPug

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Post #5
That equation alone won't tell you what the ideal damping rates for a 306 will be, to put it simply it is just calculating the damping rate of a damper if you know the properties of it.

If you do want to run them on your 306 you could:
-Note down the brand and model of your front dampers
-Find out what rear dampers are matched to them if you bought all four corners
-Get the values for these dampers and have the nitron ones re-valved to suit

This would make them work ok I guess, but this does seem like a pointless exercise. Why go to all the trouble and expense when there are rear dampers designed for a 306 available? What gain in performance are you hoping for over a damper designed to fit a 306?

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Posted 16th Feb 2017 at 17:05
RallyeRed

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Post #6
Olly why don't you throw your current spec up (front and rear) incl ARB's, TBs, Wheel size etc and see what folk think? Looks a nice spec damper by the way.

A great spec in isolation will feel terrible if it doesn't match up to the front, and so on. There's plenty of info out there, so if for example you're approaching group A tarmac spec in other aspects front dampers, spring rates etc, you have a ready made spec to replicate from Peugeot for bump and rebound.

I did similar with the 3dr Sierra track day car I built - I started by lifting the values from the touring car specs in the build manuals, got dampers re-valved and fine tuned from there.

One other thought, there's places that could put these on a dyno damper and do a report for you for not a lot of money. When I had some Bilsteins rebuilt for an M3 a few years ago I suspected only the fronts needed doing, so I paid for a rebuild on those, and had the rears dyno assessed by way of a health check and they came up fine. Think it was only £15 ea.

Cheers
Iain
Posted 16th Feb 2017 at 18:34
welshpug!

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Post #7
don't forget that the damper rate is roughly 2.5-1 on the rear so the dampers need to be 2.5× the wheel rate.

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Posted 16th Feb 2017 at 18:38
pugheaven

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Post #8
RetroPug wrote:
That equation alone won't tell you what the ideal damping rates for a 306 will be, to put it simply it is just calculating the damping rate of a damper if you know the properties of it.

If you do want to run them on your 306 you could:
-Note down the brand and model of your front dampers
-Find out what rear dampers are matched to them if you bought all four corners
-Get the values for these dampers and have the nitron ones re-valved to suit

This would make them work ok I guess, but this does seem like a pointless exercise. Why go to all the trouble and expense when there are rear dampers designed for a 306 available? What gain in performance are you hoping for over a damper designed to fit a 306?


The reason I got these was because they are a shorter damper body compared to Gaz, bilstein, avo, Koni, Spax, bc etc

I need a short body dampers due to how low the dimma Is I only have around an inch of damper travel (granted I doubt I'll ever use the full inch and bottom out)

The dampers were cheap considering how much they are new, getting them serviced and valved is no way near the price of them new.

I don't have the money to go and buy Bad, ohlins, proflex etc so I'm just doing what I can with the money I have
Posted 16th Feb 2017 at 19:47
pugheaven

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Post #9
RallyeRed wrote:
Olly why don't you throw your current spec up (front and rear) incl ARB's, TBs, Wheel size etc and see what folk think? Looks a nice spec damper by the way.

A great spec in isolation will feel terrible if it doesn't match up to the front, and so on. There's plenty of info out there, so if for example you're approaching group A tarmac spec in other aspects front dampers, spring rates etc, you have a ready made spec to replicate from Peugeot for bump and rebound.

I did similar with the 3dr Sierra track day car I built - I started by lifting the values from the touring car specs in the build manuals, got dampers re-valved and fine tuned from there.

One other thought, there's places that could put these on a dyno damper and do a report for you for not a lot of money. When I had some Bilsteins rebuilt for an M3 a few years ago I suspected only the fronts needed doing, so I paid for a rebuild on those, and had the rears dyno assessed by way of a health check and they came up fine. Think it was only £15 ea.

Cheers
Iain


No doubt about it they need a service as one of them just compresses and extends with next to no force so I would imagine the seal has gone.

My current spec, most of which is irrelevant I guess but here goes.

Front
Mc phearson top mount adaptors to push the standard 306 top mounts outboard (will be replaced with Bridgecraft top mount in the near future)
BC custom ultra low kit which are duel purch coilovers
5kg/mm 160mm spring, also have 7kg/mm 160mm springs.
Dampers valved to work with both spring rates.
Bridgecraft -2 degrees hubs
Dimma wide track wishbones
In the near future once iv fitted the top mounts etc I'll be getting Bridgecraft to sort my roll centre and bump steer.
Standard front arb with Phillip m drop links

Rear
22mm tb
30mm ARB
Bridgecraft wide track 40mm each side
Bridgecraft -3 degrees trailing arms
BC dampers matched to the fronts spec
Baker bm solid mounts (hopefully I'll get Bridgecraft to make me some stubby ones to increase damper length)

18x8 revolution millenium wheels with 225 40 18

I'll contact BC and see what they valved the fronts and rears too
Posted 16th Feb 2017 at 19:52
phillipm

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Post #10
That equation tells you nothing because it doesn't take into account the shim stacks, bleed, port sizes, edge area, preloads, etc, etc - it's just a very basic account showing that the pressure is generated against the piston,stack and rod area on the compression side but only the piston and stack on the rebound. You can't work anything out from that.

It really depends on internal design and other matters but I'd start around 1000lb/force @ 20 inch/s on the rebound, 600lb/force on the compression side, and ask them linear rebound with digressive compression. That doesn't tell them enough really but I don't know what stacks/pistons they have available so they'll have to work the low speed themselves.
But expect to re-valve a few times from there as all dampers work differently no matter what you set the basic forces to.

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Posted 16th Feb 2017 at 20:52
Denis

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Post #11
Why not speak to John at Black Art as he is able to re-build most dampers?

When he made my rear dampers – we dynoed Bilstein B46-2313 to get a baseline. Once I explained to him what I wanted to change in terms of car behaviour – he worked out the shim stacks etc.

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Posted 16th Feb 2017 at 21:57
stan_306gti6 Forum Admin

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Post #12
Interesting thread...

I'm not sure whether or not it would work the same for cars as it does for motorbikes - but I've just had extensive work carried out on the front forks of my race bike and it entailed me giving the company my weight (fully geared, ready to ride) and from that they worked out the valve rate, the shim stack to put in and that I needed new springs to be installed.

Essentially, they did the bit of working it out. Not sure if they do car suspension, but may be worth a shot...FTR Suspension

Cheers.

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Peugeot 306 GTi-6
2000 (X), Moonstone Love
Posted 17th Feb 2017 at 20:27
marksorrento205

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Post #13
stan_306gti6 wrote:
Finally an interesting thread...


EFA Thumbs up

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Posted 17th Feb 2017 at 21:01
pugheaven

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Post #14
To be honest this is all way over my head and something I really am interested in learning about.
Unfortunately most companies are not interested in talking me through all the information that I need to gather for them to then set the dampers up.
I don't blame them as time is money and considering not many people will have the same dampers it won't be beneficial for them to do the leg work.

I'm going to ring a few places next week and depending on the out come will make my mind up weather to keep these dampers and pay a chunk of money to get them set op or if I should just sell them

All the help and advice is appreciated though so I'm not wasting your time
Posted 17th Feb 2017 at 21:36
phillipm

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Post #15
The trouble is two dampers with the same settings on a dyno will perform differently on the car anyway, so without finding someone that's worked with those dampers to start with and knows their characteristics we could only ever give you a ballpark to start tuning from - hence the figures above, which should be close enough to work from.
Nitrons generally are pretty easy to service, but I've only ever done bike sets and one set with remotes, which aren't likely to be the same architecture in terms of pistons, etc.

________________________________________

- Bespoke rollcages/additions/adjustments. Half cages right up to complete custom spaceframes - MSA/FIA spec, CDS, ROPT, T45, etc - PM me
Email me!
Custom-made polybushes available - need an odd size or fitment? - anything from batch work to one-off pieces.
Posted 17th Feb 2017 at 22:04
mocinim

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Post #16
Wasting time !! Certainly not chap its good to pickup all this detail
Its a shame there isnt more questions like this

There obviously alot more to it than i first realised

I presumed it would be just a case of getting the values you want and doing comparable equations to give you a set up for these

Does any one have a full equation set to be able to equate for all the variables ???

________________________________________

BLACK RALLYE - phoenix
WHITE RALLYE - valliant

http://public.servicebox.peugeot.com/

https://www.gov.uk/check-mot-history
Posted 17th Feb 2017 at 21:53
pugheaven

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Post #17
Way more in depth than what I imagined....

Weight on the back end, torsion bars thickness/spring rate job done lol

I just need to make sure these dampers are worth all the hassle.
What are they realistically worth once set up for a 306?
Will I end up spending more than they are worth?
Will it be better for me to just put the money towards some dampers designed for a 306?
Posted 17th Feb 2017 at 22:29
phillipm

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Post #18
Nitrons are pretty decent units, I'd be amazed if you can't get them to do what you want tbh, as there's plenty of setup options.

________________________________________

- Bespoke rollcages/additions/adjustments. Half cages right up to complete custom spaceframes - MSA/FIA spec, CDS, ROPT, T45, etc - PM me
Email me!
Custom-made polybushes available - need an odd size or fitment? - anything from batch work to one-off pieces.
Posted 17th Feb 2017 at 23:27
RallyeRed

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Post #19
A rebuild to your spec shouldn't run you more than £100/corner I would have thought, and so as they're decent units you should still be in front?
The thing is, if they don't behave as you want subsequently you should get used to the idea that you might have them rebuilt to different specs several times over this summer as you play with the specs.
You're paying for the fine tuning of performance rather than the actual material value that you end up with.
Posted 18th Feb 2017 at 08:24

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