Post #1
Not my car but was reading this on another forum and thought you lot would be interested if not seen it already.http://306oc.co.uk/forum/thread-8185.html
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displaying posts 1 to 25 of 49
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| Author | Subject: S16 turbo |
 tomlum
Regular  Location: Lincoln Registered: 17 May 2011 Posts: 210 Status: Offline |
http://306oc.co.uk/forum/thread-8185.html |
 Posted 21st Nov 2012 at 16:56
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JWP EFi
Turbo Legend!  Location: edinburgh Registered: 07 Mar 2010 Posts: 2,163 Status: Offline |
Post #2
nice |
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Posted 21st Nov 2012 at 17:48
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marco gti6
Seasoned Pro  Location: Troisvierges Registered: 09 Mar 2009 Posts: 1,350 Status: Offline |
Post #3
Incredible claims on the stock internals... a 466 bhp 106 gti engine seems so unreal. But the project seems very nice. Guess i'll have to get in touch with him to see this in the flesh once done. Thanks for the link  |
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Posted 21st Nov 2012 at 18:16
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armzsc6
Seasoned Pro  Location: Crowborough Registered: 22 Mar 2008 Posts: 3,445 Status: Offline |
Post #4
Wow! He must have some serious cash though, And now I'm thinking..... Decomp plate on my SC6 with high boost intercooler and pipe work? If it goes bang I'll go forged lol. I'd be happy with 300-320bhp anyway..... But regardless of what he says I don't think it will last long before it tears itself to bits to be honest... ________________________________________ Black power baby! SUUUUUPERCHARGED Seat Leon FR TDI 190BHP 300lbft daily gti-6 killer :p 12x 306's owned so far Cambelts, clutches, service work carried out on All makes and models, Peugeot Citroen / mitsubishi specialist. Pug planet / Citroen Lexia diagnostics / code reads available. |
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Posted 21st Nov 2012 at 23:21
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eliotrw
Seasoned Pro  Location: Southwark Registered: 18 Jul 2010 Posts: 4,864 Status: Offline |
Post #5
Lol at the comment about a certain company making everyone believe 250hp is the limit in stock internals????Thats not so my friend.... I assume he's talking about Lynx, if so perhaps he should realise that, A) A reputable tuning company that values their reputation always should have a consideration that a product or conversion version they sell should last, Any old joe bloggs can do whatever he wants in his shed when no 3rd party is liable  Rich has always maintained the conversions are all about reliability, drivability and then peak power figures from whag ive seen.Hense why they are reliable and there have been very few issues with even the homebrew conversions on here. C) Theres a massive difference between saying that 250 is some percieved limit on stock internals and then what this guy is doing... If you chuck a Decompression plate in the mix (like this guy has) and end up with a 8.1 ratio. That is clearly massively different to attempting the same on the car without a comp plate and maintaining the 10.4:1 ratio..... D)Lastly loads of people have exceed 250hp on low boost anyway. Is it mabz or ash with 270??? Im sure it will last ok providing he's sensible with boost and peak power... but a decomp plate is always a weak point (intentionally so i suppose) so he wont be able to go anywhere near as mad as if he just built up an engine for the purpose.. ________________________________________ Ex- Phase 3 China GTi-6 T-Reg |
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Posted 21st Nov 2012 at 23:41
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JWP EFi
Turbo Legend! Location: edinburgh Registered: 07 Mar 2010 Posts: 2,163 Status: Offline |
Post #6
eliotrw wrote: Lol at the comment about a certain company making everyone believe 250hp is the limit in stock internals???? Thats not so my friend.... I assume he's talking about Lynx, if so perhaps he should realise that, A) A reputable tuning company that values their reputation always should have a consideration that a product or conversion version they sell should last, Any old joe bloggs can do whatever he wants in his shed when no 3rd party is liable Rich has always maintained the conversions are all about reliability, drivability and then peak power figures from whag ive seen.Hense why they are reliable and there have been very few issues with even the homebrew conversions on here. C) Theres a massive difference between saying that 250 is some percieved limit on stock internals and then what this guy is doing... If you chuck a Decompression plate in the mix (like this guy has) and end up with a 8.1 ratio. That is clearly massively different to attempting the same on the car without a comp plate and maintaining the 10.4:1 ratio..... D)Lastly loads of people have exceed 250hp on low boost anyway. Is it mabz or ash with 270??? Im sure it will last ok providing he's sensible with boost and peak power... but a decomp plate is always a weak point (intentionally so i suppose) so he wont be able to go anywhere near as mad as if he just built up an engine for the purpose.. few good points there |
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Posted 21st Nov 2012 at 23:50
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armzsc6
Seasoned Pro Location: Crowborough Registered: 22 Mar 2008 Posts: 3,445 Status: Offline |
Post #7
Very true, I presumed lynx... And as you say it's meant to be a reliable conversion and on low boost we run standard compression at 250ish bhp. Lee also runs 270bhp on a custom map. 250 is the basic generic map set at a safe limit. I'm still somewhat tempted to do something like that with mine though. I start my new job in 2 weeks which is now within walking distance if needed and can work on my own cars there as well. Also have my hdi as main car anyway so if I blew up the 6 it wouldn't be the end of the world now. Just annoying lol. ________________________________________ Black power baby! SUUUUUPERCHARGED Seat Leon FR TDI 190BHP 300lbft daily gti-6 killer :p 12x 306's owned so far Cambelts, clutches, service work carried out on All makes and models, Peugeot Citroen / mitsubishi specialist. Pug planet / Citroen Lexia diagnostics / code reads available. |
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Posted 21st Nov 2012 at 23:59
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eliotrw
Seasoned Pro Location: Southwark Registered: 18 Jul 2010 Posts: 4,864 Status: Offline |
Post #8
Oh yeah you do it sure why not. Its not so cheap though because its possible you will need different injectorsAs well as the two headgaskets and the plate it self + 400 for mapping plus Labour (unless you do it of course) You would need a different restrictor too? Its adding up :p Might as well just go all out imo :p ________________________________________ Ex- Phase 3 China GTi-6 T-Reg |
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Posted 22nd Nov 2012 at 00:04
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eliotrw
Seasoned Pro Location: Southwark Registered: 18 Jul 2010 Posts: 4,864 Status: Offline |
Post #9
You could do it i meant to say.Stupid non edits... ________________________________________ Ex- Phase 3 China GTi-6 T-Reg |
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Posted 22nd Nov 2012 at 00:06
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armzsc6
Seasoned Pro Location: Crowborough Registered: 22 Mar 2008 Posts: 3,445 Status: Offline |
Post #10
Lol I wouldn't be looking for 400bhp so depends what the flow limit of the low boost injectors and fuel pump is. Labour is nothin but free time. I have a low mileage bottom end and brand new top end 16valves valve guides light skim etc. would cost me cambelt kit, decomp plate, gaskets, head bolts, intercooler and pipes, and custom map. Restrictor ring can be machined I have 2 of them anyway  .Was currently thinking of building a forged bottom end in my spare time with spare cash and fitting at a later date. ________________________________________ Black power baby! SUUUUUPERCHARGED Seat Leon FR TDI 190BHP 300lbft daily gti-6 killer :p 12x 306's owned so far Cambelts, clutches, service work carried out on All makes and models, Peugeot Citroen / mitsubishi specialist. Pug planet / Citroen Lexia diagnostics / code reads available. |
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Posted 22nd Nov 2012 at 00:09
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armzsc6
Seasoned Pro Location: Crowborough Registered: 22 Mar 2008 Posts: 3,445 Status: Offline |
Post #11
Also meant to say was looking to get a custom map early next year anyway but will have a wee think now ________________________________________ Black power baby! SUUUUUPERCHARGED Seat Leon FR TDI 190BHP 300lbft daily gti-6 killer :p 12x 306's owned so far Cambelts, clutches, service work carried out on All makes and models, Peugeot Citroen / mitsubishi specialist. Pug planet / Citroen Lexia diagnostics / code reads available. |
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Posted 22nd Nov 2012 at 00:11
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JWP EFi
Turbo Legend! Location: edinburgh Registered: 07 Mar 2010 Posts: 2,163 Status: Offline |
Post #12
armzs16 wrote: Very true, I presumed lynx... And as you say it's meant to be a reliable conversion and on low boost we run standard compression at 250ish bhp. Lee also runs 270bhp on a custom map. 250 is the basic generic map set at a safe limit. I'm still somewhat tempted to do something like that with mine though. I start my new job in 2 weeks which is now within walking distance if needed and can work on my own cars there as well. Also have my hdi as main car anyway so if I blew up the 6 it wouldn't be the end of the world now. Just annoying lol. it seems to be a proven fact that factory rods can handle big numbers of power/torque, so you HB guys would be safe with just forged pistons, decomp plate is approx £350, plus gasket, so for proper set of pistons at another 200 would suffice, correct compression ratio without the worry of plates and gaskets blowing |
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Posted 22nd Nov 2012 at 00:14
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eliotrw
Seasoned Pro Location: Southwark Registered: 18 Jul 2010 Posts: 4,864 Status: Offline |
Post #13
Just found a thread where someone mentioned it.RichW said not to go lower than 9.5:1 for 300hp So i guess that would work ________________________________________ Ex- Phase 3 China GTi-6 T-Reg |
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Posted 22nd Nov 2012 at 00:17
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phillipm
Seasoned Pro  Location: Rotherham Registered: 15 Oct 2006 Posts: 20,607 Status: Offline |
Post #14
T99PUG wrote: would suffice, correct compression ratio without the worry of plates and gaskets blowing And more power, torque, fuel economy and a lot better bottom end and midrange than the s**tty plate + 2 HG's 'solution' ________________________________________ - Bespoke rollcages/additions/adjustments. Half cages right up to complete custom spaceframes - MSA/FIA spec, CDS, ROPT, T45, etc - PM meEmail me! Custom-made polybushes available - need an odd size or fitment? - anything from batch work to one-off pieces. |
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Posted 22nd Nov 2012 at 00:23
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JWP EFi
Turbo Legend! Location: edinburgh Registered: 07 Mar 2010 Posts: 2,163 Status: Offline |
Post #15
lets just say we are sat in traffic, fans dont come in when their meant to, youve got 2 gaskets plus a plate. Theres a huge chance it will start mixing oil and water |
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Posted 22nd Nov 2012 at 00:30
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ed_doe
Regular  Location: Milford Registered: 26 Aug 2009 Posts: 255 Status: Offline |
Post #16
eliotrw wrote: Lol at the comment about a certain company making everyone believe 250hp is the limit in stock internals???? Thats not so my friend.... I assume he's talking about Lynx, if so perhaps he should realise that, A) A reputable tuning company that values their reputation always should have a consideration that a product or conversion version they sell should last, Any old joe bloggs can do whatever he wants in his shed when no 3rd party is liable Rich has always maintained the conversions are all about reliability, drivability and then peak power figures from whag ive seen.Hense why they are reliable and there have been very few issues with even the homebrew conversions on here. C) Theres a massive difference between saying that 250 is some percieved limit on stock internals and then what this guy is doing... If you chuck a Decompression plate in the mix (like this guy has) and end up with a 8.1 ratio. That is clearly massively different to attempting the same on the car without a comp plate and maintaining the 10.4:1 ratio..... D)Lastly loads of people have exceed 250hp on low boost anyway. Is it mabz or ash with 270??? Im sure it will last ok providing he's sensible with boost and peak power... but a decomp plate is always a weak point (intentionally so i suppose) so he wont be able to go anywhere near as mad as if he just built up an engine for the purpose.. I understand what you're getting at, but I think you've somewhat missed the point with what the chap was implying. The way I read the post was that because the lowboost kit is produced and sold as 'approx 250-260hp, very few people are inclined to experiment to ascertain where the limits of the stock internals actually are, by modifying the restrictor ring on the charger, getting bespoke mapping, or by milling the pistons, or fitting a decomp plate. Everyone just seems to accept "right that's it, if i want more I need to go for forged internals and the high-boost set-up for £x more. I don't know enough about decomp plates and the like to comment on their reliability, and again I don't believe that was the point of the post, it was more that because the 'lowboost 250hp kit' suggests that is the limit on stock internals, very few have experimented to see if (substantially) more is possible, and what the actual limits are. I think anther significant point in this is budget. I do think with the right hunting about, you could achieve a reliable set-up running approx 300hp for about £3k. I suspect this would please 'Joe Bloggs' quite a lot.... YES that wouldn't be the 'off the shelf solution' from a reputable company such as Lynx, but that's the toss-up for doing it for less money, and doing a bit more research yourself, and ultimately pushing the limits. which in my opinion is part of the fun of tuning... Just my tuppence-orth anyway /dons flame-retardant suit in preparation ________________________________________ '97 Black Dturbo 110,000miles: SOLD'99 Ph3 Diablo Gti6 108k RIP '93 106 1.5n/a d: daily hack YAAAAAWN '00 Ph3 Astor GTi6 117k  |
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Posted 22nd Nov 2012 at 12:30
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fletch
Track Head  Location: The nearest Shell garage Registered: 12 Jun 2004 Posts: 12,273 Status: Offline |
Post #17
I don't believe Rich has ever said 250bhp is a limit on standard internals. Rather that running > ~7psi on stock cast pistons is not reccommended. People followed this advice and hey presto no one grenaded their engine years after the suggestion was made.Like any engine modification, it's a tradeoff between reliability and performance. You could probably chuck 12+ psi through the engine, map correctly with water/meth injection and it may last, it may not. It depends if reliability is a problem for you or not. If you want to push the limits of a standard engine, you could stockpile a few and experiment, it would still be a lot cheaper than a steel engine. It's the potential breakages and effort to solve them that puts people off. |
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Posted 22nd Nov 2012 at 13:14
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eliotrw
Seasoned Pro Location: Southwark Registered: 18 Jul 2010 Posts: 4,864 Status: Offline |
Post #18
the crux of my point was that he isnt running on standard internals in the same way a low boost kit.He has drastically changed the compression ratio.. From 10.4:1 (iirc) to 8:1 But I get what your saying for sure. ________________________________________ Ex- Phase 3 China GTi-6 T-Reg |
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Posted 22nd Nov 2012 at 13:17
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welshpug!
Capt Pedantic  Location: Bigend, Wales. Registered: 27 Mar 2007 Posts: 25,838 Status: Offline |
Post #19
cheese pistons /thread.I know a guy that has some Pistons for sale if anyone needs some btw, brand new forged low comp items, £450. ________________________________________ need a part number? get on here - http://public.servicebox.peugeot.comBring on the Trumpets. |
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Posted 22nd Nov 2012 at 13:43
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ed_doe
Regular Location: Milford Registered: 26 Aug 2009 Posts: 255 Status: Offline |
Post #20
^^ Fletch you're probably right re the boost limit being the quoted limit, rather than hp, I can't really remember. As you say though, it is a trade off, and my point was only that for the comparatively large cost of forging the engine, most people have accepted that is a reliable limit, rather than exploring it. I think it's certainly an interesting option to fit a decomp plate, and it appears (though evidence of prolongued reliability and on more than one engine remains to be seen) that this could be a very good alternative for those seeking to achieve more power on a budget.Eliot: that's the thing though, I think it would certainly be interesting to fit a decomp plate and see how much more you can squeeze from the lynx set-up for instance. I also think it would be VERY interesting to fit the larger high-high boost charger on a low-boost set-up, with an appropriately machined restrictor ring. The difference in low-end flow is massive on the high boost vs high-high boost engines, I think it would make the low-boost charger conversions a lot more 'driveable', rather than the somewhat peaky delivery with the smaller unit. Again, don't get me wrong, I'm not slating the design of the low-boost set-up, I'm sure the larger charger is significantly more expensive, which affects the saleability of the kit, but if the internals can take the significant increase in low-end torque, it would make for a much much better spread of power through the revs.... ________________________________________ '97 Black Dturbo 110,000miles: SOLD'99 Ph3 Diablo Gti6 108k RIP '93 106 1.5n/a d: daily hack YAAAAAWN '00 Ph3 Astor GTi6 117k |
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Posted 22nd Nov 2012 at 13:50
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eliotrw
Seasoned Pro Location: Southwark Registered: 18 Jul 2010 Posts: 4,864 Status: Offline |
Post #21
ed_doe wrote: The difference in low-end flow is massive on the high boost vs high-high boost engines, I think it would make the low-boost charger conversions a lot more 'driveable', rather than the somewhat peaky delivery with the smaller unit. Its a good point i've been thinkg about that for a long while to be honest, As well as keeping the revlimit where it is at the moment and matching tthe pulley size to compensate, So the max flow is moved down. Then again the low down power being how it is, is why its drivable in the first place. I have a feeling the mega charger with a 10.4:1 compression ratio would give you a LOT of low down shove. Perhaps too much. ________________________________________ Ex- Phase 3 China GTi-6 T-Reg |
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Posted 22nd Nov 2012 at 14:33
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ed_doe
Regular Location: Milford Registered: 26 Aug 2009 Posts: 255 Status: Offline |
Post #22
^^ Yeah but that's the thing; no one's tried it yet!! I reckon it'd make for a bit of a weapon. Track-cars can get away more with having a super peaky power delivery, as on track you're 'on it' the whole time, but I reckon the above combination would make for a proper animal on the roads as well, with some really great mid-range shove for overtaking...________________________________________ '97 Black Dturbo 110,000miles: SOLD'99 Ph3 Diablo Gti6 108k RIP '93 106 1.5n/a d: daily hack YAAAAAWN '00 Ph3 Astor GTi6 117k |
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Posted 22nd Nov 2012 at 15:06
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eliotrw
Seasoned Pro Location: Southwark Registered: 18 Jul 2010 Posts: 4,864 Status: Offline |
Post #23
Yeah, I think there was an additional benefit to the different restrictors used with the bigger charger too, however Im not sure about this, but I though you need a standard alone ecu too.________________________________________ Ex- Phase 3 China GTi-6 T-Reg |
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Posted 22nd Nov 2012 at 16:49
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smegal
Seasoned Pro  Location: Leeds Registered: 26 Dec 2005 Posts: 5,940 Status: Offline |
Post #24
armzs16 wrote: Wow! He must have some serious cash though, And now I'm thinking..... Decomp plate on my SC6 with high boost intercooler and pipe work? If it goes bang I'll go forged lol. I'd be happy with 300-320bhp anyway..... DO IT!!!!! ________________________________________ Ex SC-6Now in a Megane R26 |
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Posted 22nd Nov 2012 at 18:05
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marco gti6
Seasoned Pro Location: Troisvierges Registered: 09 Mar 2009 Posts: 1,350 Status: Offline |
Post #25
@ eliotrwI don't think the lad is refering to Lynx when saying that a "certain company bla bla bla" Rich has alredy sold sc kits in Holland i remember a fella who had a LB 205 on the Dutch Pug forum. This lad however is all Turbo... as are lots of other Pug owners in the Netherlands. Dp engeneering being well known in the scene to the point where even you Fellas know it in England shows that they have good conversions. However the statement that struck me most was the one of the turbo'd 106 GTI makink well over 400 bhp wile being driven daily and abused on track. As said i will look to get in touch with him and see if he does live somewhat near me to go and see all the turbo'd pugs he is talking about. I will get my 6 charged next month and after reading that some LB conversions only made 240ish bhp (smegal, cosmicspanner) is somewhat worrying me as 250+ is really the minimum i am expecting from the conversion. Don't get me wrong, 250 bhp on a 6 must be awesome already, but i guess the 265 bhp figure is about the power you'll need to be in the same league as modern fast hothatches. |
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Posted 22nd Nov 2012 at 18:05
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