displaying posts 1 to 23 of 23

Author Subject: Tarmac Rally suspension thoughts
jorg

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Location: Wallasey

Registered: 10 Jun 2007

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Post #1
Looking at getting the suspension sorted on my new 306 tarmac rally car but I am unsure where to start. I will be competing around the North West to start with so will be doing events at Three Sisters, Anglesey (Ty Croes) and Weeton. Maybe going further afield as I progress. Here are a few thoughts I have had:

Front:

Gaz Golds (through group buy on 205 Drivers)
spring poundage I have got no idea about, will depend on the rear setup
eccentric top mounts (Gaz through group buy)
Rich_W roller bearing bushes
PhillipM Lower Strut Brace

Rear:

Tarmac Rear Bilsteins
Bigger Torsion bars (25mm?)
Bigger ARB (30mm?)
Solid Rear mounts
Negative Camber Trailing Arms?
Beam to be built by Andy (jord294)

I will be running the car on R888s or A048s, maybe dunlops if I can find some. Will also have a TranX diff if that matters. Budget is four figures, how far into four figures we will have to see. So can any one point me in the right direction? Have I missed anything? Any advice/guidance would be appreciated.

Cheers

Geoff

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306 2.1 S16 Tarmac Rally Car
Project thread: http://www.306gti6.com/forum/showthread.php?id=143956
Posted 18th Dec 2011 at 15:07
devere

Senior User

Location: Saxtead

Registered: 16 Dec 2008

Posts: 810

Status: Offline

Post #2
On my rally car, im running Peugeotsport Bilstein front coilovers, with 350lb springs and tarmac inserts, and adjustable top mounts. And a top strut brace.

On the rear i have 23.5mm peugetosport torsion bars with a hybrid arb, solid mounts and the Tarmac rear Biltein shocks.

I was using a quaife 5 speed box with Kaaz diff with that.

I am definitely looking for better rear shocks though, just something that can actually be setup as the rear is the bit that really needs realing in, and keeping in check.

As for tyres, i would advise against using the track tyres, really only because the moulded slicks offer so much more grip. And the better choice in compounds will help with changing temperature, conditions and stage length.

One things to consider, will you still be able to fit the sump guard up enough with the lower strut brace? Ive never run that lower brace, so dont know how much it sits below the level of the sump..?
Posted 18th Dec 2011 at 16:00
jorg

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Location: Wallasey

Registered: 10 Jun 2007

Posts: 816

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Post #3
hopefully phillipm will be making a lower strut brace for the rallying with sump guard fixings, will send him a pm about getting them made. I could get the Gaz Gold adjustable rears as part of the group buy, and if something better pops up afterwards I could sell them on.

I am on the look out for some proper moulded slicks. Don't really want to splash out on new ones and used 15's came along very rarely. I do have Dunlop CR311 X22s for my wets though. I only said 888's as I have two sets just sat here. I will have to have a sit down later and work out an actual figure for my budget. Might make picking and choosing alot easier.

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306 2.1 S16 Tarmac Rally Car
Project thread: http://www.306gti6.com/forum/showthread.php?id=143956
Posted 18th Dec 2011 at 16:34
devere

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Location: Saxtead

Registered: 16 Dec 2008

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Post #4
I have cut X22's on the rear of mine, awesome tyres. Only a shallow cut mind, just to help get warm. They survive a long time on the rear too depite their softness. Although if it was a hot day i would use something a tad harder.

I wouldnt use them on weeton though! And if you will be going there, i probabaly wouldnt be using 25mm torsion bars, it is bloody rough there in places. I found the 23.5 mm bars a very useful upgrade, but i found anything less than 350lb springs and its very unblanaced. You could afford to go a bit harder on the front than that too. But it just depends how you want the car set up.

Ive bought plenty of part worn 15's, but they do command a bit of a premium compared to the larger sizes, as most hatch back owners are looking for them! But i will be having a selling spree on my stock of 15's in the near future as im hoping to move to 17's before i start up again next year.
Posted 18th Dec 2011 at 16:46
jorg

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Location: Wallasey

Registered: 10 Jun 2007

Posts: 816

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Post #5
Weeton isn't high on my list of places to go really. I have heard it can be a bit of a car killer. Might be going round there on the North West Stages yet as a co-driver so would find out then.

Would be very interested in any 15's you may have going. I could sell on the 888's then.

________________________________________

306 2.1 S16 Tarmac Rally Car
Project thread: http://www.306gti6.com/forum/showthread.php?id=143956
Posted 18th Dec 2011 at 16:52
welshpug!

Capt Pedantic

Location: Bigend, Wales.

Registered: 27 Mar 2007

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Post #6
save up a bit more for proper dampers Thumbs up

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Posted 18th Dec 2011 at 21:07
jorg

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Registered: 10 Jun 2007

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Post #7
what do you recommend? as I just had a very nice sale on ebay I think I can stretch the budget a bit.

________________________________________

306 2.1 S16 Tarmac Rally Car
Project thread: http://www.306gti6.com/forum/showthread.php?id=143956
Posted 18th Dec 2011 at 21:11
welshpug!

Capt Pedantic

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Post #8
you need to budget nearer the grand end than the £500 gaz tbh, have a look in the for sale section, I think there may still be a set of AST's there.

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Posted 18th Dec 2011 at 21:19
jorg

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Post #9
a £1000+ budget is looking possible now. I think the set of AST's in the for sale section have been sold.

________________________________________

306 2.1 S16 Tarmac Rally Car
Project thread: http://www.306gti6.com/forum/showthread.php?id=143956
Posted 18th Dec 2011 at 21:25
welshpug!

Capt Pedantic

Location: Bigend, Wales.

Registered: 27 Mar 2007

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Post #10
go speak to curtis at AST then Big grin

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Posted 18th Dec 2011 at 21:47
phillipm

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Post #11
The rear definately benefits from better dampers with large pistons, you have to keep them away from the bumpstops at the rear otherwise they tend to pitch the car up and forwards...

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Posted 18th Dec 2011 at 22:04
allanallen

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Post #12
welshpug! wrote:
you need to budget nearer the grand end than the £500 gaz tbh, have a look in the for sale section, I think there may still be a set of AST's there.


Gaz golds were about £900 without top mounts the last time I looked??

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Posted 19th Dec 2011 at 07:34
jorg

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Location: Wallasey

Registered: 10 Jun 2007

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Post #13
there is a group buy on the 205GTiDrivers forum at the moment with some good offers.

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306 2.1 S16 Tarmac Rally Car
Project thread: http://www.306gti6.com/forum/showthread.php?id=143956
Posted 19th Dec 2011 at 07:53
daveyboy

aka Jim Davey

Location: Southampton

Registered: 01 Oct 2007

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Post #14
allanallen wrote:
welshpug! wrote:
you need to budget nearer the grand end than the £500 gaz tbh, have a look in the for sale section, I think there may still be a set of AST's there.


Gaz golds were about £900 without top mounts the last time I looked??


Yeah, but the rears are very very basic, 90% of that money is in the fronts.

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Posted 19th Dec 2011 at 09:30
allanallen

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Post #15
daveyboy wrote:
allanallen wrote:
welshpug! wrote:
you need to budget nearer the grand end than the £500 gaz tbh, have a look in the for sale section, I think there may still be a set of AST's there.


Gaz golds were about £900 without top mounts the last time I looked??


Yeah, but the rears are very very basic, 90% of that money is in the fronts.


Very true, IIRC the rears are under £200. That said mine control the rear end pretty well considering the size of bars I'm running, i'm more than happy with them. It's not a rally car though, so fairly un-helpful sorry.

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Posted 19th Dec 2011 at 10:24
allanallen

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Post #16
Just another thought regarding gaz golds, the fronts are a bit shorter than other coilovers which is fine on a track car. Low ride height and very little droop may be a little undesirable on a rally car though?!

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Posted 19th Dec 2011 at 10:47
welshpug!

Capt Pedantic

Location: Bigend, Wales.

Registered: 27 Mar 2007

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Post #17
hence my suggestion of AST in the first instance, nearly every set is custom assembled Smile

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Posted 19th Dec 2011 at 13:15
jorg

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Post #18
I will give Curtis at AST a call in the new year and see what he suggests. Will rule the Gaz Golds out of contention for now. Already been in touch with Rich W over the roller bearings so they are sorted and have spoke to Andy about building the beam. I am just unsure what spec to run at the back though.

I have already got a Hybrid ARB and the solid rear mounts but I will the Hybrid be enough? Do I need bigger? then I have the problem of which size torsion bars to run. and is it worth me getting the negative camber trailing arms done? Will they be worthwhile on a rally car?

________________________________________

306 2.1 S16 Tarmac Rally Car
Project thread: http://www.306gti6.com/forum/showthread.php?id=143956
Posted 19th Dec 2011 at 13:29
yippeekayay

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Location: wilts

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Post #19
Having rallied all over the uk ireland and some of,europe in 306's,205's and 309's and blown all kinds of budgets I would find a set of tried and tested shocks and go and play. Half the time,the venues you will face wont be billiard table smooth and assuming these events are your first from your previous threads then your money is much better spent on tyres and doing events. Sorry if you have done loads of events. Spending a grand on suspension to amack it on a kerb pothole bale or TREE is pointless. Wish I knew that 20 years ago!

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Posted 19th Dec 2011 at 17:40
Denis

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Post #20
As the others have mentioned, time in the seat is the more important than what bits are fitted on the car, so certainly at the beginning it would be better to do more events than buy better suspension.

I run 25mm torsion bars + 30mm arb and regularly drive my car to work on bumpy country lanes. The main problem is with very big bumps - you just run out of suspension travel. To give you an idea with 25mm bars the rear suspension has 80mm of droop! On the other hand good dampers keep it all in check and even when you get airborne the car just lands, grips and goes exactly where you want it to. Still I would say if I were to build suspension for such conditions – I would go for 23mm bars and use smaller ARB.

Not sure how important the camber on the rear is for a rally car, but again driving my car with 3deg & R888 on country lanes – the outside of the tyre warms up less than the inside.

I had an excellent experience with Black Art Designs suspension – so would highly recommend it. Everything is made to order based on the intended use of the car, corner weights etc (the class winning Rallycross 306 in The Parts Bin section has BAD coilovers at the front). Have a look in my project section for some pictures and feedback.

My suggested options would be:

Start-up setup
Front: Bilstein V36-4133/4 (306 B8) Eibach springs, Rear: Bilstein B46-1038 (205 Group N gravel), 21mm torsion bars.
Midway
Front: AST / BAD 1-way adjustable, Rear: Bilstein B46-2313 (205 Group A Tarmac), 23 or 25mm bars
Very good
AST / BAD 3-way adjustable, 23 or 25mm bars.
Ultimate ?
Proflex, Penske, etc

P.S. of course the best option is to convert the rear to turrets.

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Posted 19th Dec 2011 at 21:28
jorg

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Location: Wallasey

Registered: 10 Jun 2007

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Post #21
thanks for all the advice guys. I will be doing two out of the three local event in march no matter what suspension is on the car. as yippee and the russian have said getting out there and gaining experience is the main thing. Parts can and will be upgraded/improved over time.

________________________________________

306 2.1 S16 Tarmac Rally Car
Project thread: http://www.306gti6.com/forum/showthread.php?id=143956
Posted 20th Dec 2011 at 15:06
hovis16

Seasoned Pro

Location: Reading/parts for sale

Registered: 21 Nov 2008

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Post #22
russian guy wrote:
As the others have mentioned, time in the seat is the more important than what bits are fitted on the car, so certainly at the beginning it would be better to do more events than buy better suspension.

I run 25mm torsion bars + 30mm arb and regularly drive my car to work on bumpy country lanes. The main problem is with very big bumps - you just run out of suspension travel. To give you an idea with 25mm bars the rear suspension has 80mm of droop! On the other hand good dampers keep it all in check and even when you get airborne the car just lands, grips and goes exactly where you want it to. Still I would say if I were to build suspension for such conditions – I would go for 23mm bars and use smaller ARB.

Not sure how important the camber on the rear is for a rally car, but again driving my car with 3deg & R888 on country lanes – the outside of the tyre warms up less than the inside.

I had an excellent experience with Black Art Designs suspension – so would highly recommend it. Everything is made to order based on the intended use of the car, corner weights etc (the class winning Rallycross 306 in The Parts Bin section has BAD coilovers at the front). Have a look in my project section for some pictures and feedback.

My suggested options would be:

Start-up setup
Front: Bilstein V36-4133/4 (306 B8) Eibach springs, Rear: Bilstein B46-1038 (205 Group N gravel), 21mm torsion bars.
Midway
Front: AST / BAD 1-way adjustable, Rear: Bilstein B46-2313 (205 Group A Tarmac), 23 or 25mm bars
Very good
AST / BAD 3-way adjustable, 23 or 25mm bars.
Ultimate ?
Proflex, Penske, etc

P.S. of course the best option is to convert the rear to turrets.


i have to admit russian guys car feels amazing with the coilovers he runs.........................im so fed up of mine in going for the Start-up setup
Front: Bilstein V36-4133/4 (306 B8) Eibach springs, Rear: Bilstein B46-1038 (205 Group N gravel), 21mm torsion bars.
this set up alone feels great.

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Posted 20th Dec 2011 at 21:42
jorg

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Location: Wallasey

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Post #23
As everyone was back in work today I thought I would start making some phone calls. Already knew what GAZ had on offer through the 205 groupbuy so called BAD, AVO and AST. The call to BAD didn't last too long as what they were offering was well over budget. He said I would need "progressive tenders" for rallying and they are priced at the two grand mark. So they are ruled out.

Moved onto Nigel at AVO, very nice bloke to deal with. We talked through the options available around my price range, Decided budget wise it would be the mono-tube single adjustable setup for the front, with a choice of springs but they are for standard top mounts. If I want adjustable top mounts I have to send them to AVO for fitting. Price wasn't too bad, I got prices for the full set and one for just the fronts as I may have something lined up for the rears.

Then I phoned Curtis at AST. Again a very nice person to deal with. The first quote he said was £1800 plus VAT which is well over budget. That was for 50mm Rally spec setup. I asked if there was anything abit cheaper that would be up to doing the job to which he replied if I phoned back in an hours time he would see what he can come up with. Phoned back and he had worked out some prices for a 45mm setup which were more in my price bracket. Talked through some options and left it there. Will have to sit down and have a look again at my budget.

________________________________________

306 2.1 S16 Tarmac Rally Car
Project thread: http://www.306gti6.com/forum/showthread.php?id=143956
Posted 3rd Jan 2012 at 17:10

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