Battery cutoffs - Electrical Forum - Peugeot 306 GTi-6 & Rallye Owners Club

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Subject: Battery cutoffs

owain

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Post #1

Right, I'm redoing the electrics in the centre console and if it's easy to do while I'm there I might as well put in some kind of cutoff switch.

However, as ever it's not as simple as I thought. The basic switches (about a tenner) are just a big 12v switch. Obviously on a car with an alternator this won't cut anything off and the car will just keep on running. The "proper" ones are about �50. How do these cut the power to the car? They seem to have some low-current-looking connections on the back, what are these meant to be wired to?

I'm not going to be racing or anything but plenty of trackdays, so if I can make the car safer I'd like to. Is cutting the engine as easy as just cutting power to the fuel pump? Or would this cause engine issues?

All I really want is some way of stopping the engine if I have an off and get trapped in the car Smile

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Posted 1st Feb 2011 at 14:09

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rikky 🦔

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Post #2

they cut the power and also have ignition switches so it will break ignition rather than just kill the battery. if you turn the power off the car whilst it's running it'll keep running anyway. that's why they break ignition or spark etc

they also have a diode for alternator protection but this is not a massive issue. i have mine set to break ignition and also have independent spark and cutoff switches anyway. i never kill the car using the kill switch unless i absolutely have to (no shit)

i have also got external switches in the dummy fuel cap for killing the engine [spark] so it'll cut out within 1 second of flicking it. had someone do it to me at the lights though, so have an internal bypass too

cutting fuel pump power will make the car run usually until it's used the fuel in the lines, so not instant, but works - i have one on my bog std gti6 as a tiny immobiliser but i nreality it's easy to bypass

(the FIA ones have 4 pins on the back for 2 seperate circuits you can kill aswell as the power. a lot of people will list different ways of wiring these up but it's up to you)

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Posted 1st Feb 2011 at 14:16

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owain

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Post #3

Rikky's my info-b*tch today Smile

I see. So if you have the ignition wired into it as well you'd have no battery *or* alternator, so the fuel pump would stop anyway and wouldn't be a concern.

Where abouts did you wire it into the ignition? I've never really looked at the ignition wiring, was it fairly easy to cut into?

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Posted 1st Feb 2011 at 14:23

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rikky 🦔

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Post #4

i have it going directly to the ignition barrel plug, i think it's the black plug, i'd have to double check

i have my FIA switch which breaks the ignition, and which also has the diode protection thing setup (although i have ran it without this in the past)

i have a switch on the dash for killing spark so i don't kill the 12v power to the car totally. i prefer to use this

i never ever touch the FIA switch when the car's running or i need to turn it off. i still have the key but am ditching it for a push start so i can save some more weight

if i was upside down on fire then yes i would pull the kill switch

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Posted 1st Feb 2011 at 14:27

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owain

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Post #5

Hmm, I was wondering about ditching the keys eventually, and just relying on some other method of security. Realistically the car lives in a locked garage and only comes out for trackdays, but no harm having an immobiliser still.

So to clarify - your big red killswitch cuts the power from the battery *and* the main power from the key, however this is your last resort method.

Is the switch to the spark just a normal toggle switch? And where does that cut into the loom? Plus surely if you stopped this you'd just flood the engine?

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Posted 1st Feb 2011 at 14:32

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rikky 🦔

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Post #6

yep and yep

i picked up a feed from the black relay on the back of the batery [mine's all custom wiring but you could do that]. i basically narrowed down which wire to cut which would kill the engine spark and just broke into it with a toggle switch Yes

i also have an immobiliser on my car [thatcham cat2] as they wouldn't insure it with my mods etc without it

it cuts the car as if you've stalled it and i've never had flooding issues, it'l always restart immediately afterwards. really these would only be used in a serious problem, ie smashed up / rolled car and i imagine a bit of engine flood would be the least of your worries Laugh

but joking aside i've had no issues whatsoever

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Posted 1st Feb 2011 at 14:39

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owain

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Post #7

quote:

narrowed down which wire to cut which would kill the engine spark and just broke into it with a toggle switch

Again never looked at this, I assume there's just a wire somewhere that goes to the coil packs?

quote:

i also have an immobiliser on my car

That's not a bad idea, might just remove the standard Pug keypad one I hate and get a proper Cat2 fitted with a transponder.

As you say it's not exactly something I'd use on a daily basis, but with plastic windows all round I could quite easily get stuck in the car, wouldn't fancy the engine running at that point Smile

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Posted 1st Feb 2011 at 14:54

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rikky 🦔

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Post #8

yeah just one of the wires which goes to the relay itself i chopped into. mine's an mi16 engine so probably a bit different in terms of wiring layout but you'd be able to do exactly the same, a haynes/autodata pinout should list a suitable one Yes

once you start with shit like this you will never stop Laugh

i've got into wiring really badly and redone the whole car again inc moving fuseboxes inside and new relays for everything, full dash control panel + switches etc Doh

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Posted 1st Feb 2011 at 15:00

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owain

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Post #9

Yeah, that's the concern LOL

I always enjoyed electrics, so pulling it apart should be really sad geeky fun. However, I might just get the car starting again first Wink

I don't intend to stop until I can individually switch on cylinders LOL

Maplins & CPC better watch out...

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Posted 1st Feb 2011 at 15:13

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rikky 🦔

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Post #10

i would get your bits from autoelectricsupplies online, cheap cheap!

http://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/

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Posted 1st Feb 2011 at 15:19

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prism7guy

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Post #11

Am i right in thinking that in order to cut ignition a toggle switch would be needed somewhere along wire '115 (BA)'?

Another question to save starting a new thread: If i was to put a toggle switch in the above wire, and was to try to start the engine with the switch open (no spark), would it allow my engine to turn over and build up oil pressure before i close the switch and let the engine fire up?

Would the above idea be worth doing?

Just wondering as my dad's caterham takes a while to fire up if its been stood for a while, but he doesnt mind because you can see the oil pressure gauge rise, allowing most components to be lubricated before being spun up to tickover speed.

EDIT: Image below acquired from my haynes manual:

Also, would you run '115 (BA)' through '2' on this battery isolator?

Sorry for the huge image above, i pinched it from the supplier rikky mentioned so can't resize LOL

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Posted 11th Feb 2011 at 00:13

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welshpug!

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Post #12

I'd do it to CC2.

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Posted 11th Feb 2011 at 00:23

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prism7guy

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Post #13

Cheers Mei Thumbs up

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Posted 11th Feb 2011 at 00:36

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welshpug!

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Post #14

Have to say though, that's just what I'd try

I've never fitted one before but seeing as that wire is the modern equivalent of the old ignition switched to the coil on a Carbed car, and that it'll kill everything engine wise it seems logical to me.

Do check that your gti6 loom is like that one though, there were a few variations of what the switched live went on gti6 looms, though with the alternator etc wired properly it'll shut down pretty quickly anyway.

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Posted 11th Feb 2011 at 00:42

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daveyboy

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Post #15

They are about �7.00 from RallyDesign, don't get ripped off for the switch. (This includes the relay, and resistor for the separate alternator disconnection circuit)

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Posted 11th Feb 2011 at 00:43

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chris with a pug

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Post #16

daveyboy wrote:

They are about �7.00 from RallyDesign, don't get ripped off for the switch. (This includes the relay, and resistor for the separate alternator disconnection circuit)

Thats not an FIA one and what is the relay for? you just need the diode thing for the ground never heard of getting a relay with a cut off switch

Posted 11th Feb 2011 at 02:58

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rikky 🦔

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Post #17

http://www.rallydesign.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=692_693&products_id=3559

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Posted 11th Feb 2011 at 04:11

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owain

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Post #18

Right people, need some help here. I've come to cut into the wiring for my killswitch, and have independently come to the same conclusion as Mei - I need to cut into the feed from the ignition to the engine management relay on the back of the battery box.

However, I don't know whether it's a Phase 1 thing, but all the wires I have are complete different to the Haynes manual. Haynes says 2 green (which I have), 2 grey (I have 3), 2 red (I have 3), 2 orange (I have 1), 4 white (I have 5) and 1 beige, of which I have two. All different enough to imply it's a completely different wiring loom.

The manual implies it's a grey wire feeding from the ignition:

But I have two grey wires, and don't trust the colouring anyway as they're clearly all different. Therefore the only hope in hell I have is to find which wire goes to pin 14 on the relay. However, it's a sealed unit with a load of wires going in.

Does anyone have any ideas?! I really don't want to have to go through every wire with a multimeter, cutting it then resoldering it...

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Posted 11th Sep 2011 at 11:42

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rikky 🦔

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Post #19

its pretty easy really, all i did was see which one was putting anything out with car running and made a note. one of them was for the spark/supplying ecu same as you mention above, so as soon as i broke it, the car cut out. i thought i pm'd you about this Unsure

then again just checked pm's and no messages whatsoever in sent or inbox so no idea if i replied or not!? Doh

i ignored the haynes for mine because mine's an s16/mi16 engine so the wiring was wrong in the book on mine

i still have a proper fia switch with resistor breaking the ignition barrel as normal but i've got a secondary switch breaking it off like the above. i still have my barrel for now but this is going when i finally get the car home [not even seen the car for 6 months and have been on the verge of giving it PX into a 911 turbo deal]

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Posted 11th Sep 2011 at 11:58

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prism7guy

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Post #20

It may not be of any use to you but i opted to fit mine with one of the wires coming from the ignition switch. I couldnt find the identifying code which i was looking for on the wire so i used my multimeter and saw which wires were cut off from the 2nd click to the 1st click. I seem to remember that two of the pairs of wires cut off where i only expected one of the pairs to.
I cant remember which wire i cut and ran through the cutoff switch but it certainly kills the engine when i turn the cutoff switch off.
I can go out and take a picture if its any use to you?

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Posted 11th Sep 2011 at 12:00

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owain

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Post #21

I'd considered taking a feed from the actual switch, but the wires there are enormous so I'd rather not. It's a last resort and it doesn't look like I'll be finishing this today so yes that'd be really handy, but there's no rush to do it this minute Smile

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Posted 11th Sep 2011 at 12:44

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prism7guy

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Post #22

I'm flushing the oil in goldie after dinner so i'll get a pic for you.
I thought it looked like thick wire so i bought some 30A wire from ebay to go to and from the killswitch, i can't see it needing that much as my alternator only kicks out 50A LOL

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Posted 11th Sep 2011 at 13:05

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owain

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Post #23

Well that's certainly a possibility then, looks like mine just has different colours for some reason so I'm doomed. Any idea how much current the killswitch is designed to take? I'd imagine there's a big difference between just putting through the current for the management relay and putting through all the current to the engine?

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Posted 11th Sep 2011 at 14:07

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owain

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Post #24

rikky wrote:

all i did was see which one was putting anything out with car running and made a note

Sorry Rikky, missed your post initially. You did PM me, but none of them got carried forward into the new forum Doh

Still, I seemed to remember you saying there was a thick, brown wire which you cut into. I had no such wire, and as you had a S16 I just assumed this meant our cars were completely different.

How did you "see which one was putting anything out"?

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Posted 11th Sep 2011 at 14:19

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prism7guy

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Post #25

Thats how i have mine plumbed in.

I can't remember the specified current rating for the cutoff switch but it has been fine so far, and i've been on quite a few drives where it's been running for several hours at a time.

EDIT: You can't really see too well from the photos but i snipped the orange ish wire for the cutoff.

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Posted 11th Sep 2011 at 17:08

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