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Author Subject: Project bottom end...
availablebmx

Regular

Location: Leigh-on-Sea, Essex

Registered: 24 Oct 2007

Posts: 355

Status: Offline

Post #1
Annialated my bottom end yesterday at snetterton...
Was running well hot for a while, which obviously thinned the oil, and the track is predominally right hand turns... Which I'm guessing had starved the bearing of oil causing it to break!

Now my options are:
1. Fix my existing engine, obviusly depending on damage but as a guess I would have thought this was cheapest!
2. Buy 2nd hand bottom end and put my longman head back on it... Gunna cost just under a grand with fitting I would have thought!
3. No holds barred... I was thinking of going for more power somewhere down the road, maybe a throttle bodies and nos combo! So maybe go for a longman forged high comp bottom end to match my head...

How much power can you put through a standard bottom end, as I'm hoping for around 250?

Any thoughts would be great..?

________________________________________

Thomas - Black 6 rollin' on black 15's...
197bhp - 155.8bhp/135.4ft-lb atw
Posted 17th Nov 2009 at 19:06
jeffers Forum Admin

Location: Leeds

Registered: 14 Dec 2003

Posts: 3,702

Status: Offline

Post #2
The low boost charged boys are on standard bottom ends @~250 so standard should do what you want it to! However should you want to go furthur than that... you'll need to uprate things i would of thought!Wink

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Posted 17th Nov 2009 at 19:11
daveyboy

aka Jim Davey

Location: Southampton

Registered: 01 Oct 2007

Posts: 8,648

Status: Offline

Post #3
I'm doing exactly the same thing at the moment Smile

________________________________________

R H Davey Welding Supplies. I sell new and used welding equipment in the Hampshire area. I take on welding jobs in the evenings, ally casting repairs are one of my specialities but I can weld pretty much anything. PM me with your requirements.

Some of my services: (See my for sale threads)
Engine mount/chassis repair
Solid Beam Mounts BACK IN PRODUCTION
Harness bars
Posted 17th Nov 2009 at 19:32
pugheaven

Seasoned Pro

Location: Fareham

Registered: 17 Dec 2006

Posts: 4,602

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Post #4
Im doing a similar build atm, im using longmans forged rods and peugeot sport forged pistons, ill be runnin 285 cams and bodies and hopin for 230bhp. Will find it hard and a lot of money to get more than 240hp N/A.
Posted 17th Nov 2009 at 19:35
availablebmx

Regular

Location: Leigh-on-Sea, Essex

Registered: 24 Oct 2007

Posts: 355

Status: Offline

Post #5
pugheaven how comes your forging you engine if you hoping for around 230 then..? Isn't that overkill..?

________________________________________

Thomas - Black 6 rollin' on black 15's...
197bhp - 155.8bhp/135.4ft-lb atw
Posted 17th Nov 2009 at 19:51
pugheaven

Seasoned Pro

Location: Fareham

Registered: 17 Dec 2006

Posts: 4,602

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Post #6
it was either forged or pocket some standard pistons. Higher compresson, faster rev due to weight. Think jim has gone forged aswell.
Posted 17th Nov 2009 at 19:59
phillipm

Seasoned Pro

Location: Rotherham

Registered: 15 Oct 2006

Posts: 20,607

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Post #7
Higher rev. limit if you're doing some top end work too = more power.

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Posted 17th Nov 2009 at 20:03
pugheaven

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Location: Fareham

Registered: 17 Dec 2006

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Post #8
using uprated mains and big ends and raising rev limiter to 8k maybe.
Posted 17th Nov 2009 at 20:10
phillipm

Seasoned Pro

Location: Rotherham

Registered: 15 Oct 2006

Posts: 20,607

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Post #9
And some decent oil Whistle

________________________________________

- Bespoke rollcages/additions/adjustments. Half cages right up to complete custom spaceframes - MSA/FIA spec, CDS, ROPT, T45, etc - PM me
Email me!
Custom-made polybushes available - need an odd size or fitment? - anything from batch work to one-off pieces.
Posted 17th Nov 2009 at 20:20
pugheaven

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Location: Fareham

Registered: 17 Dec 2006

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Post #10
oh yes, dont know what oil to go for atm tho.
Posted 17th Nov 2009 at 20:31
jcphat

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Registered: 22 Feb 2008

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Post #11
Worth doing a full job with uprated rods etc if you are going to make lots of n/a power as you will need to run higher revs. The stress on rods rises by a greater proportion than the increase in revs so that while standard bottome ends are well able to support @250 brake with forced induction I am not sure if any of them approach 8000 rpm as a very pokey N/A would likely need to.

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Posted 17th Nov 2009 at 20:35
daveyboy

aka Jim Davey

Location: Southampton

Registered: 01 Oct 2007

Posts: 8,648

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Post #12
jcphat wrote:
Worth doing a full job with uprated rods etc if you are going to make lots of n/a power as you will need to run higher revs. The stress on rods rises by a greater proportion than the increase in revs so that while standard bottome ends are well able to support @250 brake with forced induction I am not sure if any of them approach 8000 rpm as a very pokey N/A would likely need to.


Aiming for an 8.75k rev limit on mine, forged pistons and steel rods are a neccesity.

________________________________________

R H Davey Welding Supplies. I sell new and used welding equipment in the Hampshire area. I take on welding jobs in the evenings, ally casting repairs are one of my specialities but I can weld pretty much anything. PM me with your requirements.

Some of my services: (See my for sale threads)
Engine mount/chassis repair
Solid Beam Mounts BACK IN PRODUCTION
Harness bars
Posted 17th Nov 2009 at 23:06
pete_rallye

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Location: Yorkshire

Registered: 12 Dec 2002

Posts: 5,253

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Post #13
8750 on a standard crank would need a very well balanced bottom end, or a proper steel crank. Any vibration will break the crank pretty quick. Get the crank flywheel and clutch all balanced as one unit, and then make sure all the rods and pistons are identically matched.

My engine made 270bhp@8250rpm though so you may not need those revs if you choose your other mods carefully.

Theres a good chance I'm going to be selling my steel crank+pugsport rods soon if anyones interested, then you can have 10k+ rpm to play with.

________________________________________

Oulton Park in a BTCC 306 vid 1
Oulton Park in a BTCC 306 vid 2
Lap of the 'ring
Posted 17th Nov 2009 at 23:14
jeffers Forum Admin

Location: Leeds

Registered: 14 Dec 2003

Posts: 3,702

Status: Offline

Post #14
Hmmm interesting pete....... Hmm

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Posted 17th Nov 2009 at 23:21
cjm_harris

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Location: Parts for Sale section

Registered: 04 Dec 2007

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Post #15
jeffers wrote:
Hmmm interesting pete....... Hmm


Indeed Hmm

Does anyone want to buy a kidney?

More like a kidney, a lung, a leg and an arm Razz

________________________________________

Chris
1999 China Gti6 Supercharged Devil [Fun car] >>Project Thread<<
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Posted 17th Nov 2009 at 23:26
welshpug!

Capt Pedantic

Location: Bigend, Wales.

Registered: 27 Mar 2007

Posts: 25,839

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Post #16
get the sump off and inspect the crank bearings and conrods before you go any further Thumbs up

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Posted 17th Nov 2009 at 23:35
crossflow

Regular

Location: England

Registered: 21 Jan 2008

Posts: 159

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Post #17
8,000rpm is your limit on the standard crank, I have got 240 out of zetec's and peugeot at 7,700 but they did have my own design of cams in them
Posted 18th Nov 2009 at 00:21
daveyboy

aka Jim Davey

Location: Southampton

Registered: 01 Oct 2007

Posts: 8,648

Status: Offline

Post #18
crossflow wrote:
8,000rpm is your limit on the standard crank, I have got 240 out of zetec's and peugeot at 7,700 but they did have my own design of cams in them


Hearing lots of differing opinions on the maximum limit for the standard crank, bearing in mindit will be on new bearings with significantly lighter rods and pistons bolted onto it we will see. Who has actually had a crank failiure and at what RPM? I would be interested to know as I have'nt heard of any failiures, plenty of valve and bearing related issues, but nothing directly attributed to crank failiure. Also I placed my order for the cams today, I'll post up the exact specs later as they are one offs but the inlet is 296 degree and something like 12.5mm lift.

________________________________________

R H Davey Welding Supplies. I sell new and used welding equipment in the Hampshire area. I take on welding jobs in the evenings, ally casting repairs are one of my specialities but I can weld pretty much anything. PM me with your requirements.

Some of my services: (See my for sale threads)
Engine mount/chassis repair
Solid Beam Mounts BACK IN PRODUCTION
Harness bars
Posted 18th Nov 2009 at 08:06
daveyboy

aka Jim Davey

Location: Southampton

Registered: 01 Oct 2007

Posts: 8,648

Status: Offline

Post #19
pete_rallye wrote:
8750 on a standard crank would need a very well balanced bottom end, or a proper steel crank. Any vibration will break the crank pretty quick. Get the crank flywheel and clutch all balanced as one unit, and then make sure all the rods and pistons are identically matched.

My engine made 270bhp@8250rpm though so you may not need those revs if you choose your other mods carefully.

Theres a good chance I'm going to be selling my steel crank+pugsport rods soon if anyones interested, then you can have 10k+ rpm to play with.


The crank pulley, crank, fly-wheel, clutch and clutch cover plate will all be sent away along with the pistons and rods for dynamic balancing as I am very keen for this lump to stay together. Obviously I don't intend sustained periods at that sort of RPM but it would be nice to know it can take it if I miss a shift or loose concentration once in a while.

________________________________________

R H Davey Welding Supplies. I sell new and used welding equipment in the Hampshire area. I take on welding jobs in the evenings, ally casting repairs are one of my specialities but I can weld pretty much anything. PM me with your requirements.

Some of my services: (See my for sale threads)
Engine mount/chassis repair
Solid Beam Mounts BACK IN PRODUCTION
Harness bars
Posted 18th Nov 2009 at 08:20
pete_rallye

Seasoned Pro

Location: Yorkshire

Registered: 12 Dec 2002

Posts: 5,253

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Post #20
I've heard of plenty of people revving them to 8500rpm, one was in a rally car with short gearing that meant the car used to sit on the limiter at 8500rpm for some time on long straights. That also had standard rods and pistons actually, and it was an mi16, not gti-6 but must be similar.

________________________________________

Oulton Park in a BTCC 306 vid 1
Oulton Park in a BTCC 306 vid 2
Lap of the 'ring
Posted 18th Nov 2009 at 13:18
pugheaven

Seasoned Pro

Location: Fareham

Registered: 17 Dec 2006

Posts: 4,602

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Post #21
pete let me know when you sell the crank. Interested but depends on price.
Posted 18th Nov 2009 at 13:22
daveyboy

aka Jim Davey

Location: Southampton

Registered: 01 Oct 2007

Posts: 8,648

Status: Offline

Post #22
pete_rallye wrote:
I've heard of plenty of people revving them to 8500rpm, one was in a rally car with short gearing that meant the car used to sit on the limiter at 8500rpm for some time on long straights. That also had standard rods and pistons actually, and it was an mi16, not gti-6 but must be similar.


That would sound about right as I was told that I should be fine up to 8.75K as long as I'm not using it too often. Your crank does'nt run on standard big end sizes does it?

________________________________________

R H Davey Welding Supplies. I sell new and used welding equipment in the Hampshire area. I take on welding jobs in the evenings, ally casting repairs are one of my specialities but I can weld pretty much anything. PM me with your requirements.

Some of my services: (See my for sale threads)
Engine mount/chassis repair
Solid Beam Mounts BACK IN PRODUCTION
Harness bars
Posted 18th Nov 2009 at 14:52
pete_rallye

Seasoned Pro

Location: Yorkshire

Registered: 12 Dec 2002

Posts: 5,253

Status: Offline

Post #23
The crank has 45mm big ends, which is why I'll be selling the rods and crank together, with a brand new set of bearings. The rods also have a 22mm small end I think, as opposed to the standard rods 20mm.

I'll be asking

________________________________________

Oulton Park in a BTCC 306 vid 1
Oulton Park in a BTCC 306 vid 2
Lap of the 'ring
Posted 18th Nov 2009 at 17:02
daveyboy

aka Jim Davey

Location: Southampton

Registered: 01 Oct 2007

Posts: 8,648

Status: Offline

Post #24
pete_rallye wrote:
The crank has 45mm big ends, which is why I'll be selling the rods and crank together, with a brand new set of bearings. The rods also have a 22mm small end I think, as opposed to the standard rods 20mm.

I'll be asking

________________________________________

R H Davey Welding Supplies. I sell new and used welding equipment in the Hampshire area. I take on welding jobs in the evenings, ally casting repairs are one of my specialities but I can weld pretty much anything. PM me with your requirements.

Some of my services: (See my for sale threads)
Engine mount/chassis repair
Solid Beam Mounts BACK IN PRODUCTION
Harness bars
Posted 18th Nov 2009 at 17:19
gtisid

Seasoned Pro

Location: chelmsford

Registered: 22 Mar 2003

Posts: 4,992

Status: Offline

Post #25
woul;d a decent sump baffle help with your diagnosis on your blown up engine?

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Posted 18th Nov 2009 at 18:03

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