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Author Subject: Building a bigger bottom end....
Ben_W

Formerly gpm

Location: Lutterworth

Registered: 01 Sep 2007

Posts: 2,941

Status: Offline
Post #1
All,

The engine I've got that's going in the OEM resto Rallye is getting a bloody good clean up and rebuild before it does. Block getting vapour blasted along with the gearbox then the rebuild will start.

However, I'm considering some engine upgrades along the way (so I can thrash a certain pink rover and a blue heap of a 6....long story) but I want to keep it looking stock. That means no tb's, chargers or turbos. Std induction only.

What's involved in building a bigger bottom end (I've read about a 2.2?), what's needed to go with it etc and what kind of costs am in looking at?

Cheers

________________________________________

Cherry Red Rallye .... On going OEM spec resto

China Blue GTi6 .... Weekend toy

Black 208 GTi .... Wife's car now

Silver BMW 550i.... The executive missile

Posted 7th Feb 2016 at 18:01
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cully

Seasoned Pro

Location: Cullompton

Registered: 12 Jun 2013

Posts: 1,093

Status: Offline
Post #2
lightened flywheel is a good start
and maybey get the top engine mount chocked nd reinforced
Posted 7th Feb 2016 at 18:21
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Day666

Seasoned Pro

Location: Bristol

Registered: 20 Apr 2013

Posts: 5,214

Status: Offline
Post #3
Look up Russain Guy / Dennis car Project if you haven't already ?
He had a stock engine & it was amazing with the little bits that all added up to a lot ...did loads of mods himself for track & used it as a daily ...

2.2 going to cost you £3000 plus to do well ...unless you cut corners with mapping etc ...

Dennis had modified stock stuff Inc stock inlet modified though & it seemed to work bloody well ....most of the clever sods on here that had a ride said it was the best handling car going car on track ...

Are you wanting it for track as in the two pain in the ass cars ?
Or road or both ?

All the best Thumbs up
Posted 7th Feb 2016 at 18:51
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jorg

Senior User

Location: Wallasey

Registered: 10 Jun 2007

Posts: 816

Status: Offline
Post #4
have a look through the engine sections on the 205GTiDrivers forum, there is loads of info over there on the topic

________________________________________

306 2.1 S16 Tarmac Rally Car
Project thread: http://www.306gti6.com/forum/showthread.php?id=143956
Posted 7th Feb 2016 at 19:30
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roland rat

Yeeeah Rat fans!

Location: Swansea

Registered: 29 Nov 2006

Posts: 22,284

Status: Offline
Post #5
What about pt 81's and a remap? My old black rallye made 193 bhp with these mods and went really well
Posted 7th Feb 2016 at 19:33
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Ben_W

Formerly gpm

Location: Lutterworth

Registered: 01 Sep 2007

Posts: 2,941

Status: Offline
Post #6
Cheers Ash and everyone else.

I'm trying to make the most of the engine without going with tbs or superchargers. I still want it to look stock.

Cams and a map are a possibility Ash, definately. I just want to make the most of it. As the saying goes, there ain't no replacement for displacement......

I was reading up on someone's 2.2 project. Were going to use 300zx pistons and rods on a 92mm crank but got abandoned due to having too much rod movement on the journals as the rods weren't wide enough. Haven't finished reading yet but think they went back to an 88mm crank for a 2.1 build....

£3k is a lot for a bottom end. Probably too much. Have heard of Russian guys car, didn't it have some silly trick £2k suspension on it?

Ideally, its going to be a weekend car. Possibly the odd track day but mainly as OEM as it can be (to look at at least) and do some concourse stuff. Just want it to go as well as I think a Rallye should do.

________________________________________

Cherry Red Rallye .... On going OEM spec resto

China Blue GTi6 .... Weekend toy

Black 208 GTi .... Wife's car now

Silver BMW 550i.... The executive missile

Posted 7th Feb 2016 at 19:50
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roland rat

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Location: Swansea

Registered: 29 Nov 2006

Posts: 22,284

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Post #7
Need to set yourself a budget and work from there.

I'm sure a decent 2.1 lump can be built for not a great deal,welshpug recently sold a good one for 600 ish iirc.

I'd say 2.1,cams and a remap should kick on the door of 200 bhp
Posted 7th Feb 2016 at 20:11
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Ben_W

Formerly gpm

Location: Lutterworth

Registered: 01 Sep 2007

Posts: 2,941

Status: Offline
Post #8
I think thats about where I want to be Ash, maybe a touch more but it will do for now

________________________________________

Cherry Red Rallye .... On going OEM spec resto

China Blue GTi6 .... Weekend toy

Black 208 GTi .... Wife's car now

Silver BMW 550i.... The executive missile

Posted 7th Feb 2016 at 20:13
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blandy

Seasoned Pro

Location: Bucks

Registered: 25 Feb 2007

Posts: 2,437

Status: Offline
Post #9
Welshpugs old engine was a 2ltr still with newman cams and pocketed Pistons and itbs should be a easy 200bhp
Posted 7th Feb 2016 at 20:18
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Ben_W

Formerly gpm

Location: Lutterworth

Registered: 01 Sep 2007

Posts: 2,941

Status: Offline
Post #10
Yeah, tbs are out. STD induction only. Still want it looking stock from the outside.

________________________________________

Cherry Red Rallye .... On going OEM spec resto

China Blue GTi6 .... Weekend toy

Black 208 GTi .... Wife's car now

Silver BMW 550i.... The executive missile

Posted 7th Feb 2016 at 20:20
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roland rat

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Location: Swansea

Registered: 29 Nov 2006

Posts: 22,284

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Post #11
Well you can build a lump for sub 1k but it's the mapping or ecu that's gonna cost you mate
Posted 7th Feb 2016 at 20:21
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Ben_W

Formerly gpm

Location: Lutterworth

Registered: 01 Sep 2007

Posts: 2,941

Status: Offline
Post #12
Yeah, figured that. How far can you take the std ECU and map?

________________________________________

Cherry Red Rallye .... On going OEM spec resto

China Blue GTi6 .... Weekend toy

Black 208 GTi .... Wife's car now

Silver BMW 550i.... The executive missile

Posted 7th Feb 2016 at 20:25
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roland rat

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Location: Swansea

Registered: 29 Nov 2006

Posts: 22,284

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Post #13
Well Wayne Schofield remapped the standard ecu on the black rallye I had so aslong as you haven't got a crazy spec lump it should be ok.

He's not cheap mind......
Posted 7th Feb 2016 at 20:37
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Ben_W

Formerly gpm

Location: Lutterworth

Registered: 01 Sep 2007

Posts: 2,941

Status: Offline
Post #14
roland rat wrote:


He's not cheap mind......


Quality never is...... £400 is a figure I've heard for his services.

Couple that lot with a bigger bottom end you must be at about 200 bhp, maybe a touch more?

________________________________________

Cherry Red Rallye .... On going OEM spec resto

China Blue GTi6 .... Weekend toy

Black 208 GTi .... Wife's car now

Silver BMW 550i.... The executive missile

Posted 7th Feb 2016 at 20:51
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roland rat

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Location: Swansea

Registered: 29 Nov 2006

Posts: 22,284

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Post #15
More like 500 of say

Good cams,pocked pistons and a good bottom end should see 200 ish Thumbs up
Posted 7th Feb 2016 at 20:54
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welshpug!

Capt Pedantic

Location: Bigend, Wales.

Registered: 27 Mar 2007

Posts: 25,838

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Post #16
the aforementioned 2.1 was running ph2's and omega +1mm pistons on proper Farndon rods and 88mm crank, on itbs it made 220 bhp/190 ish lbft, probably a bit too much compression for the cams, however to go any wilder it becomes quite expensive as you need an uprated valvetrain as the stock valve springs cant take a lot more peak lift than the ph2/pt81 etc.

I'd imagine you could still be near the 200 mark on a single throttle, my 2.0 as mentioned made 177 on the ph2's without a map on the std inlet, probably a conservative number tbh, with a map it should have been a bit stronger up top with more ignition.

I would be a bit sceptical of a true 200 without changing the valvetrain pistons and wilder cams on a 2.0.

2.2 does indeed need proper rods as the crank is 2mm wider between the cheeks so the rods need to be wider.

you'll be 1100 into pistons and rods to make a 2.1 or 2.2.

ecu and loom will cost you around 750, mapping 300, if you decide to do it properly and go itbs later on then just another 300 to map and release the potential.

________________________________________

need a part number? get on here - http://public.servicebox.peugeot.com

Bring on the Trumpets.

Posted 7th Feb 2016 at 21:06
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roland rat

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Location: Swansea

Registered: 29 Nov 2006

Posts: 22,284

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Post #17
There's a nice set of PT81's for sale on the 205 forum Ben Wink
Posted 7th Feb 2016 at 21:03
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Ben_W

Formerly gpm

Location: Lutterworth

Registered: 01 Sep 2007

Posts: 2,941

Status: Offline
Post #18
Cheers Mei, that's the kind of info im after....

What does the 88mm crank come out of?

________________________________________

Cherry Red Rallye .... On going OEM spec resto

China Blue GTi6 .... Weekend toy

Black 208 GTi .... Wife's car now

Silver BMW 550i.... The executive missile

Posted 7th Feb 2016 at 21:04
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roland rat

Yeeeah Rat fans!

Location: Swansea

Registered: 29 Nov 2006

Posts: 22,284

Status: Offline
Post #19
Ben_W wrote:
Cheers Mei, that's the kind of info im after....

What does the 88mm crank come out of?


An engine? LOL
Posted 7th Feb 2016 at 21:05
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Ben_W

Formerly gpm

Location: Lutterworth

Registered: 01 Sep 2007

Posts: 2,941

Status: Offline
Post #20
Oh Ash, your such a bell end funny man....

Which engine you throbber?!

________________________________________

Cherry Red Rallye .... On going OEM spec resto

China Blue GTi6 .... Weekend toy

Black 208 GTi .... Wife's car now

Silver BMW 550i.... The executive missile

Posted 7th Feb 2016 at 21:06
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welshpug!

Capt Pedantic

Location: Bigend, Wales.

Registered: 27 Mar 2007

Posts: 25,838

Status: Offline
Post #21
88mm crank is from a 1.9 xu/xud or 2.0 dw, the td crank is preferable.

________________________________________

need a part number? get on here - http://public.servicebox.peugeot.com

Bring on the Trumpets.

Posted 7th Feb 2016 at 21:07
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welshpug!

Capt Pedantic

Location: Bigend, Wales.

Registered: 27 Mar 2007

Posts: 25,838

Status: Offline
Post #22
I added more above btw.

________________________________________

need a part number? get on here - http://public.servicebox.peugeot.com

Bring on the Trumpets.

Posted 7th Feb 2016 at 21:08
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lj_6

Regular

Location: Bristol

Registered: 19 Jan 2010

Posts: 246

Status: Offline
Post #23
88mm crank is out of the 1.9td engine I believe.

________________________________________

Astra burg #365 Garrett Power
'99 bodied 6 track project
Posted 7th Feb 2016 at 21:08
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barrym

Senior User

Location: Westcliff-on-sea

Registered: 26 Jun 2014

Posts: 502

Status: Offline
Post #24
roland rat wrote:
Well Wayne Schofield remapped the standard ecu on the black rallye I had so aslong as you haven't got a crazy spec lump it should be ok.

He's not cheap mind......


Which black rallye was this bud?. Only asking because I have a black rallye you used to own

________________________________________

China D Turbo HDi daily charger
Black Rallye occassional toy
Posted 8th Feb 2016 at 17:38
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roland rat

Yeeeah Rat fans!

Location: Swansea

Registered: 29 Nov 2006

Posts: 22,284

Status: Offline
Post #25
barrym wrote:
roland rat wrote:
Well Wayne Schofield remapped the standard ecu on the black rallye I had so aslong as you haven't got a crazy spec lump it should be ok.

He's not cheap mind......


Which black rallye was this bud?. Only asking because I have a black rallye you used to own


T464 KDM?
Posted 8th Feb 2016 at 21:57
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