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Author Subject: ITB kit and cam recommendation
welshpug!

Capt Pedantic

Location: Bigend, Wales.

Registered: 27 Mar 2007

Posts: 25,838

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Post #26
depends on the total length, around 380mm iirc is a good place to start.


my rods were 600 on their own, thats usually plus vat @ 20% also, pistons from cp will be about the same.

you really do need to speak to an engine builder rather than a parts retailer, i have never been a fan of how pug1off assemble engines, they're all revs expense and no torque.

________________________________________

need a part number? get on here - http://public.servicebox.peugeot.com

Bring on the Trumpets.

Posted 15th Jul 2016 at 10:39
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hepkem

Junior User

Location: ISTANBUL

Registered: 11 Dec 2008

Posts: 52

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Post #27
I'll measure total trumpet size and let you know.

does CP produce higher than 12.2 comp pistons for our engine ? I can try omega piston you have mentioned, I'll appreciate if you can link me the right one from below site ;

http://qedmotorsport.co.uk/qed-shop/view-all-products-in-shop?keyword1=omega%2087mm%20piston

________________________________________

1999 Xsara VTS ITB
Posted 15th Jul 2016 at 10:46
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hepkem

Junior User

Location: ISTANBUL

Registered: 11 Dec 2008

Posts: 52

Status: Offline
Post #28
is it wise to use following adjustable trumpets on my ITB, will they fit ?

http://www.emeraldm3d.com/emerald-adjustable-length-intake.html

________________________________________

1999 Xsara VTS ITB
Posted 15th Jul 2016 at 11:01
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welshpug!

Capt Pedantic

Location: Bigend, Wales.

Registered: 27 Mar 2007

Posts: 25,838

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Post #29
they only fit a dcoe throttle body unfortunately, good as a tool but a bit expensive once you have chosen a length as youll never need to change them again!

________________________________________

need a part number? get on here - http://public.servicebox.peugeot.com

Bring on the Trumpets.

Posted 15th Jul 2016 at 11:08
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blandy

Seasoned Pro

Location: Bucks

Registered: 25 Feb 2007

Posts: 2,437

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Post #30
hepkem wrote:
is it wise to use following adjustable trumpets on my ITB, will they fit ?

http://www.emeraldm3d.com/emerald-adjustable-length-intake.html


looks quite a smart solution really
Posted 15th Jul 2016 at 11:11
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hepkem

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Location: ISTANBUL

Registered: 11 Dec 2008

Posts: 52

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Post #31
Total length of each intake in total is 28cm, trumpet size inside airbox is 9cm, below are detailed photos ;







Is it possible to source cheaper plastics trumpets in order to try different size options, find the right one and than purchase aluminum version ?

I checked with pug1off and both 4cm and 6cm in length inside airbox trumpets available.
Which size do you recommend inside airbox box 4cm or 6cm ?

I was using 12.2 comp pistons with previous cams and increasing to 307 I guess compression dropped. Will it be enough to play with trompet size only or do you definitely recommend higher comp pistons ?

Another question is about timing, without disassembling any parts, is it wise to drop timing and try on the dyno again ?

________________________________________

1999 Xsara VTS ITB
Posted 15th Jul 2016 at 13:11
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welshpug!

Capt Pedantic

Location: Bigend, Wales.

Registered: 27 Mar 2007

Posts: 25,838

Status: Offline
Post #32
total to the valve is my measurement.

________________________________________

need a part number? get on here - http://public.servicebox.peugeot.com

Bring on the Trumpets.

Posted 15th Jul 2016 at 13:19
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hepkem

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Location: ISTANBUL

Registered: 11 Dec 2008

Posts: 52

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Post #33
I can't remove the itb now so what is your comment on the part I change , change to 4cm or 6cm or keep 9cm ?

________________________________________

1999 Xsara VTS ITB
Posted 15th Jul 2016 at 13:20
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pete_rallye

Seasoned Pro

Location: Yorkshire

Registered: 12 Dec 2002

Posts: 5,253

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Post #34
If the heads been skimmed you'll have higher than 12.2 anyway. Inlet length is important but as long as you're in the right area it'll be ok, all changing it will do is move the peak power up and down the rev range. If you're power is seriously down then inlet length isn't your problem. Have you done basic checks, compression etc?

________________________________________

Oulton Park in a BTCC 306 vid 1
Oulton Park in a BTCC 306 vid 2
Lap of the 'ring
Posted 15th Jul 2016 at 20:06
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welshpug!

Capt Pedantic

Location: Bigend, Wales.

Registered: 27 Mar 2007

Posts: 25,838

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Post #35
trumpet length can do a lot more than move peak power, you can lose a massive amount under the curve if you get it wrong.

what is your total tract length?

________________________________________

need a part number? get on here - http://public.servicebox.peugeot.com

Bring on the Trumpets.

Posted 15th Jul 2016 at 21:37
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hepkem

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Location: ISTANBUL

Registered: 11 Dec 2008

Posts: 52

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Post #36
done compression test and result was fine, checked valve gaps and they were ok also. we found that one of the ignition coils was about to fail, changed spark plugs and failing coil. also found that 104 degree timing which cam requires was setup as 102 by engine builder so set the timing as 105 degress. tested on dyno again and result is 228 PS and 203 NM now ;



it's still pretty less than expected power figure and there's a strange drop of torque at 6000rpm.
Could this be related with trumpet size ??

ecu tuner will do tuning again as we changed timing and changed failing ignition coil. I'll share the result after these are done.

@welshpug ; I have shared all the photos about ITB trumpet size. What do you mean with tract length ? Could you recommend me trumpet size based on the photos I shared ? I have 9cm and other options are 4cm and 6cm ??

________________________________________

1999 Xsara VTS ITB
Posted 27th Jul 2016 at 16:19
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welshpug!

Capt Pedantic

Location: Bigend, Wales.

Registered: 27 Mar 2007

Posts: 25,838

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Post #37
total tract length is the distance from valve to trumpet bell mouth

________________________________________

need a part number? get on here - http://public.servicebox.peugeot.com

Bring on the Trumpets.

Posted 27th Jul 2016 at 20:25
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phillipm

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Location: Rotherham

Registered: 15 Oct 2006

Posts: 20,607

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Post #38
How much room do you have to extend the trumpet lengths?

If you can't go any longer I'd try the 4's.

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Posted 27th Jul 2016 at 20:33
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hepkem

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Post #39
@phillipm I have reverie carbon airbox so maybe 2-3cm more at max. I can use much longer if I use open and do a custom air supply solution instead of airbox. What will be the difference using 4cm vs 14cm based on your experience ?

________________________________________

1999 Xsara VTS ITB
Posted 28th Jul 2016 at 06:38
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hepkem

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Location: ISTANBUL

Registered: 11 Dec 2008

Posts: 52

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Post #40
latest power curve with 231ps and 202Nm ;



Hydraulic vs Solid Lifter Setup Comparision ;



Thinner lines represent previous hyradulic lifter setup.
Torque is low everywhere in the curve and power is just more after 7400rpm Sad

Car will be on rolling road and ecu tuner will do a fine tuning on real road condition also next week and but I don't expect much more.

Open to suggestion based on previous post and latest power curves.

________________________________________

1999 Xsara VTS ITB
Posted 28th Jul 2016 at 12:00
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IvayloPavlov

Regular

Location: Sofia,Bulgaria

Registered: 06 Aug 2012

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Post #41
http://www.jenvey.co.uk wrote:
What is the correct overall system length?

Induction length is one of the most important aspects of fuelling performance engines.
In our experience an under-length system is the greatest cause of disapointment, with loss of up to 1/3 of power potential. There are a number of good books on the subject and the serious developer is referred to these and, in particular, dyno trials. A guide figure, from the face of the trumpet to the centre of the valve head is 350mm for a 9,000 RPM engine. Other RPM are proportional i.e. for 18,000 RPM the figure is approximately 175mm.

Any air feed system to an airbox or filter can have a large effect on the power curve and must be considered carefully particularly if the airbox is small.
The induction system is part of a resonant whole from air inlet or trumpet to exhaust outlet and the ideal length is heavily influenced by the other components.
Posted 28th Jul 2016 at 20:28
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hepkem

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Post #42
my total measurable length was 28cm so it will be 30cm+ for sure to valve center. these are all theoretical info which I have to try many different setups but I was searching for real world experience from the people who used similar 308 degree or more mechanical lifter setup with ITB...

does anyone has a dyno result with 12.2 compression pistons, 4-2-1 LT manifold, 308 degree or higher cams ITB setup ?? if yes, how long their trumpets were ?

________________________________________

1999 Xsara VTS ITB
Posted 29th Jul 2016 at 08:22
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IvayloPavlov

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Location: Sofia,Bulgaria

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Post #43
Are you measure w/ Airbox? May this help with dip.

http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Airboxes.html
Posted 29th Jul 2016 at 17:01
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pete_rallye

Seasoned Pro

Location: Yorkshire

Registered: 12 Dec 2002

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Post #44
hepkem wrote:

does anyone has a dyno result with 12.2 compression pistons, 4-2-1 LT manifold, 308 degree or higher cams ITB setup ?? if yes, how long their trumpets were ?


Not got a dyno result yet, but I'm running Kent PT85's, Jenvey 48's, BTCC 4-2-1 manifold, 12:1 compression ratio. I know i've got more than 240bhp as its running lean at the top end, and the map its currently running on was for my old engine, which made 240bhp. Its not mega lean so I'm not expecting masses more but I'd hope for 250ish.

I know Devere had power issues and it turned out to be the trumpet design, they were the really rounded edge type, I think he changed them for Jenvey ones which worked a lot better.

________________________________________

Oulton Park in a BTCC 306 vid 1
Oulton Park in a BTCC 306 vid 2
Lap of the 'ring
Posted 29th Jul 2016 at 20:51
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devere

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Registered: 16 Dec 2008

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Post #45
I'm running Kent PT84 cams. Wossner pistons. 4-2-1 manifold. 2.5 inch exhaust. 45mm jenvey throttle bodies with 90mm trumpets.

It's making just under 240hp and about 235nm torque
Posted 29th Jul 2016 at 21:31
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pete_rallye

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Location: Yorkshire

Registered: 12 Dec 2002

Posts: 5,253

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Post #46
welshpug! wrote:
depends on the total length, around 380mm iirc is a good place to start.


Total length (valve seat>end of trumpet) depends on a lot of different things, but mainly cam profile and where you want/expect your maximum power to be.

The books I have suggest 310mm>330mm for engines that rev from 7000>8500rpm.

________________________________________

Oulton Park in a BTCC 306 vid 1
Oulton Park in a BTCC 306 vid 2
Lap of the 'ring
Posted 29th Jul 2016 at 22:52
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phillipm

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Location: Rotherham

Registered: 15 Oct 2006

Posts: 20,607

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Post #47
Cam profile/overlap + timing are the main things, as well as where the throttle blade is in the tract, and how much room you have to play with, if you have enough room to go longer and get into the next set of harmonics you can reap more benefit.

________________________________________

- Bespoke rollcages/additions/adjustments. Half cages right up to complete custom spaceframes - MSA/FIA spec, CDS, ROPT, T45, etc - PM me
Email me!
Custom-made polybushes available - need an odd size or fitment? - anything from batch work to one-off pieces.
Posted 29th Jul 2016 at 22:59
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blandy

Seasoned Pro

Location: Bucks

Registered: 25 Feb 2007

Posts: 2,437

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Post #48
devere wrote:
I'm running Kent PT84 cams. Wossner pistons. 4-2-1 manifold. 2.5 inch exhaust. 45mm jenvey throttle bodies with 90mm trumpets.

It's making just under 240hp and about 235nm torque


What are the other specs? If I could get anywhere near those figures I'd be over the moon more the torque than Bhp very impressive
Posted 30th Jul 2016 at 16:08
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pete_rallye

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Location: Yorkshire

Registered: 12 Dec 2002

Posts: 5,253

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Post #49
Did you get to the bottom of this?

________________________________________

Oulton Park in a BTCC 306 vid 1
Oulton Park in a BTCC 306 vid 2
Lap of the 'ring
Posted 1st Sep 2016 at 22:23
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