Pure Track setup - Suspension Forum - Peugeot 306 GTi-6 & Rallye Owners Club

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Subject: Pure Track setup

BigTallPaul

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Location: Leicester

Registered: 02 Jun 2013

Posts: 90

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Post #1

Wanting your advice regarding the 'best' setup for trackdays. Ideally from those who race or regularly do trackdays.

My car runs a V6 engine and box so weighs 60kg more than std (all at the front end).

I have currently acquired (not fitted yet!)
Front - Spax RSX coilovers with extra castor and adjustable camber with uprated bushes. Std arb.
Rear - Spax RSX adjustable shocks and Beam with 25mm tb's and 30mm arb

Real question is- What spring poundage should I go for to keep the car balanced ???

Spax are a little protective about their spring rates, but its around 250-280lb up front where as the rear end is stiffer at around 330lb.

What do you reckon, 325lbs / 350lb's / 400lbs ?

I do drive the car on road but couldn't care less about comfort.

Paul

Posted 4th Nov 2013 at 09:47

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c_j_m

Seasoned Pro

Location: Andover

Registered: 23 Sep 2007

Posts: 1,917

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Post #2

I've got 400lb springs with my 23.5 bars and it seems pretty good tbh. Although I'm running it stupid low so handling and damper travel isn't what it would be if it was a decent height.

Posted 4th Nov 2013 at 10:09

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allanallen

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Location: Buxton

Registered: 01 May 2007

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Post #3

i'd be looking at 4-500lbs paul, the damping of the spax might not be brilliant for such high spring rates but ive never used them so cant be sure.

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Posted 4th Nov 2013 at 11:02

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adam b

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Location: The Nam

Registered: 24 Jan 2006

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Post #4

I would first consider how to move some weight further back, maybe fibreglass bonnet, lighter front bumper, move battery weight back then look into springs. Also see if you can move the engine weight further back and maybe lower in the car.

Then around 400 with a decent amount of travel. Mine did pretty well on 285s tbh, but it was mostly a road car. You do need a certain amount of compliance in a track car too - it needs to ride bumps as well as reduce weight transfer around corners.

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Posted 4th Nov 2013 at 20:26

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BigTallPaul

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Location: Leicester

Registered: 02 Jun 2013

Posts: 90

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Post #5

I guess it makes sense to attempt to lighten the front first but Adam, really, drop the engine further(!) Its already only about 1.5mm above the subframe/wishbone and thats just 7/8mm lower than std. I have 'shaved' the end of the inlet manifold to stop it fouling the master cylinder. Battery relocate definitely on the cards. Found a really useful/clever online suspension setup site where you fill in around 10 items and it suggests front or rear spring rates. With 65/35% weight distribution and 330lb/in rear tb's it came up at 470 to 530lb/in fronts.
Looks like more spending to me. Then theres the question of rear toe in/out vs rear camber....

Posted 4th Nov 2013 at 21:00

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Jopeti

Newbie

Location: Tampere

Registered: 03 Mar 2013

Posts: 12

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Post #6

Hi mate,

I race at Endurance track series with a bit overweight (1020kg) Xsara VTS.
I struggled long time finding right spring rate for front axle.
My TB's are 24,5mm and rear ARB is 24mm (due to class rules). Front ARB is also original.

I have tried 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10kg/mm which are roughly 340-560lb/inch.
For my car the best balance was found with 8kg (450lb/in) springs.
Shock absorbers play important role in this issue, especially in rear end, where there is only short movement.
I'd advise to start testing with 400lb/inch springs!

What comes to wheel alignment, it's completely down to your personal opinion.
Though many favor 0mm setup (on rear axle), for me it's too restless while driving straight.
It's also funny that Citroen Racing factory built track Xsara's have 6mm toe in, on rear axle.
On front axle, I'd start testing with 0mm setup.

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Posted 4th Nov 2013 at 21:47

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BigTallPaul

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Location: Leicester

Registered: 02 Jun 2013

Posts: 90

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Post #7

Some very interesting information, Thanks a lot for your input all of you.
>Jopeti - So what length front spring did you use? Do you have helper springs as well? With my car weighing 1120kg(!) i.e. 10% more than yours I still think its likely I'll be looking close to 500lb/in....

Posted 5th Nov 2013 at 08:16

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Jopeti

Newbie

Location: Tampere

Registered: 03 Mar 2013

Posts: 12

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Post #8

BigTallPaul wrote:

I knew I forgot something! Helper springs were the key to finally find some grip when exiting corners. First we tried some very loose helper springs, but they did not make any difference. Solution was about 60mm (rest lenght) tender springs with about 3kg/mm (168lb/inch) spring rate. That spring compresses completely with your corner weight, and does not have significant role while inbounding (sorry not sure if correct word). Instead when cornering and your inner tire tries to raise, that tender spring keeps it in contact with track.

My main spring is 140mm long (5,5inches).

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Posted 5th Nov 2013 at 08:33

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adam b

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Location: The Nam

Registered: 24 Jan 2006

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Post #9

I wasn't sure where your v6 sat, some are high and leant forward....
I really understand the clearance thing LOL

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Posted 5th Nov 2013 at 22:47

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BigTallPaul

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Location: Leicester

Registered: 02 Jun 2013

Posts: 90

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Post #10

To keep you updated I've taken the plunge and ordered some Silicon Steel 500lb 9" springs to start off with.

If they are too long or too stiff (or both) they can be exchanged for the first 30 days. :-)

Thanks for your help, I'll let you know how it all goes!

Paul

Posted 6th Nov 2013 at 16:53

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allanallen

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Location: Buxton

Registered: 01 May 2007

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Post #11

Paul, I'd say they're too long! Especially if you decide to go for modded hubs as we discussed, they'll touch the tyre.

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Posted 6th Nov 2013 at 17:55

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RetroPug

Seasoned Pro

Location: Leicestershire

Registered: 15 Jan 2013

Posts: 2,473

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Post #12

Not advice on an optimum setup, but a good track tip to hone in on optimum in any case if you are able to adjust suspension variables. If not, nevermind. LOL

When running slicks, if you have a tyre temperature gauge, that would work brilliantly, or, very cheaply you could buy something like this. After running the car you can then take temperatures across the width of each tyre. Very uneven temperatures means your tyre contact with the road is not optimum.

You can then adjust things, run some more, and see if this changes.

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Posted 6th Nov 2013 at 18:05

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allanallen

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Location: Buxton

Registered: 01 May 2007

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Post #13

Paul's ripping through the front outside edge of his tyres, no temp gauge required! Razz

it's a good point though, even feeling the tyre with your hand gives you a bit of an idea.

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Posted 6th Nov 2013 at 18:08

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RetroPug

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Location: Leicestershire

Registered: 15 Jan 2013

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Post #14

Those meat thermometers are so cheap and do the job just as well as dedicated tyre ones, which I'm sure are extortionately expensive!

If you can see uneven wear with your own eyes then it is definitely off. LOL

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Posted 6th Nov 2013 at 18:23

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BigTallPaul

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Location: Leicester

Registered: 02 Jun 2013

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Post #15

Yep, when you literally rip the tread away from the central core you know somethings not right!
>Allen - Too short? I measured the current spring length (car on ground) as around 6.3". Ideally I need it to be an inch longer due to limits on coilover adjustment. I calculated that a 9" 500lb spring under 800lbs would drop about 1.6" therefore ending up around 7.4". Am I getting this wrong? Thanks either way for your help! Paul

Posted 6th Nov 2013 at 20:40

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adam b

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Post #16

Infrared thermometers are about £30 from maplin.

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Posted 7th Nov 2013 at 19:44

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BigTallPaul

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Location: Leicester

Registered: 02 Jun 2013

Posts: 90

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Post #17

>Adam - Thanks but as I install commercial A/C for a living I already own 2.... I just didn't think to take either with me (doh!)

Posted 7th Nov 2013 at 20:42

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midlife

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Location: Colne, Lancashire

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Post #18

BigTallPaul wrote:

2 x 500lb springs on the front remember...

Cool

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Posted 7th Nov 2013 at 20:58

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BigTallPaul

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Location: Leicester

Registered: 02 Jun 2013

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Post #19

>Midlife - Erm yeah. 2 x 500lb springs with 2 x 800lbs to deal with.

Stiff Yep. Handling.... to be determined very soon.

Posted 7th Nov 2013 at 21:07

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lurch86

Senior User

Location: Herne Bay, Kent

Registered: 22 Nov 2010

Posts: 505

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Post #20

Let me know how you get on, I'm interested in improving my handling for my track only gti too.

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Posted 8th Nov 2013 at 23:48

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BigTallPaul

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Location: Leicester

Registered: 02 Jun 2013

Posts: 90

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Post #21

Update - New 500lb front springs and 330lb solid mount rear beam installed. All I can say at this stage is WOW.
No difference to the ride on smooth tarmac. Very little roll even on fast corners. Braking is much more consistent as there is little evident weight transfer. Very happy..

Need to fiddle about with my adjustable dampers as it appears I may have them set too firm (for road at least).

Only downside is riding over a catseye feels like you've gone over a brick..... #feeleverybump.com

:-)

Paul

Posted 12th Nov 2013 at 08:07

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allanallen

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Location: Buxton

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Post #22

Glad to hear it's an improvement! Get as much camber/castor on the front as you can with your top mounts and you'll see a vast improvement in tyre wear on circuit.

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Posted 12th Nov 2013 at 10:14

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Phil white

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Location: Harrogate

Registered: 29 Jun 2013

Posts: 223

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Post #23

Paul what helper spring did you use in the end?
I've got kw v1 up front with eccentric top mounts and rear gaz golds 23.5 mm tbs 30mm arb and solid mounts.(I will be having negative camber added to the rear aswell.)

I was considering a 450lb 9" spring up front. But no idea on helper

Posted 25th Jan 2014 at 20:32

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demondriverdan

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Location: Londinium

Registered: 29 Nov 2010

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Post #24

Phil, I've got Gaz Golds all round with 23.5mm TBs and hybrid ARB. I've just put a 400lb 6" spring in along with a 40lb 4" helper.

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Posted 25th Jan 2014 at 23:18

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Phil white

Regular

Location: Harrogate

Registered: 29 Jun 2013

Posts: 223

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Post #25

Cheers dan, where did you source the springs from? And have you been on track with the setup? How did it feel?

Posted 26th Jan 2014 at 11:17

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