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Author Subject: Ruling out HG failure
RetroPug

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Post #1
My car has been lazy starting from cold for a while now, and lately it has started to idle ever so slightly roughly, but only sometimes and it goes away when I rev it and allow it to idle again.

A couple of months ago I replaced the CTS which cured the issue...for about 2 weeks. I've also cleaned my ICV but do not know whether it is functioning properly or not.

I have changed the plugs and posted a picture of the old plugs which I was told looked healthy.

At the start of the year the car was hit and written off...after fixing it and driving it for a bit it lost coolant and overheated..I assumed this was a leaky rad from being hit so replaced it, and it didn't ever overheat again.

Old air filter was pretty clogged as where I was over summer was very dusty, and the lazy starting did begin in summer. New filter is going in soon, so will see if that helps.

What would be the best way to proceed? What tests should I do to definitively rule out the HG having failed or to detect it? Can I test my ICV with a multimeter? If so, how? If I get a sniff test done, and it says it is fine, will this be a definitive proof that the HG is sealing properly? If I run the car for 15sec before it can heat the coolant and then remove the rad cap and it has pressurised will that indicate that the HG is gone?

Really not sure what to do, but want the car to run properly. Other than slightly rough idle, it pulls fine through the whole rev range.

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61k miles Ph.1 Diablo '6 Project Thread
Posted 10th Oct 2013 at 12:45
ryangti6

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Post #2
On these a sniff test is really the definitive way to tell though usually a compression test will also highlight any problems.

I'd advise you do one of the above and you will know for definite, unfortunately what you are describing with the slightly rough idle sounds very much like it may be on It's way. When you give it a little rev to clear it look for a puff of steam from the exhaust.

The sooner you identify it as being the problem if it is going the better as they can burn quite bad marks into the head when the go between cylinders and due to there not being much spare metal to skim off it can render your head scrap.

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Ryan
Posted 10th Oct 2013 at 13:34
stan_306gti6 Forum Admin

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Post #3
Run the car up to temperature via driving it, and then allow it to stand overnight.

Take the rad cap off in the morning. There should be no pressure there. If there is, there is something amiss.

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Posted 10th Oct 2013 at 13:34
RetroPug

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Post #4
stan_306gti6 wrote:
Run the car up to temperature via driving it, and then allow it to stand overnight.

Take the rad cap off in the morning. There should be no pressure there. If there is, there is something amiss.


I did that after bleeding a month and a half or so ago and there was no pressure in the morning...then after a couple of weeks the lazy starts returned.

ryangti6 wrote:
On these a sniff test is really the definitive way to tell though usually a compression test will also highlight any problems.

I'd advise you do one of the above and you will know for definite, unfortunately what you are describing with the slightly rough idle sounds very much like it may be on It's way. When you give it a little rev to clear it look for a puff of steam from the exhaust.

The sooner you identify it as being the problem if it is going the better as they can burn quite bad marks into the head when the go between cylinders and due to there not being much spare metal to skim off it can render your head scrap.

I've heard of compression tests not always being definitive on these cars?
I'll look into getting a sniff test done...car isn't running right now anyway as it is waiting on an airbox in the post.


I'm a bit wary of spending more money on this car, it is a fairly nice one but it's an ex-write off...

Thanks for the help.

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61k miles Ph.1 Diablo '6 Project Thread
Posted 10th Oct 2013 at 16:00
RetroPug

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Post #5
Oh, to add...when I bled the radiator...when the car got right up to temperature the coolant suddenly started bubbling a lot. Am I correct in assuming that until it is up to temperature the coolant sitting in the block is isolated from the rad so no combustion gases would come out through the rad cap opening until the thermostat opened?

If the coolant was being pressurised, basically it shouldn't pressurise the rad until the thermostat opens, correct?

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61k miles Ph.1 Diablo '6 Project Thread
Posted 10th Oct 2013 at 16:31
stan_306gti6 Forum Admin

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Post #6
Yeah, that's right.

There will be a slight bypass of coolant when the thermostat is in the closed position, but there won't be a lot of flow at all. Smile

Bubbling in the header tank is also a sign of HG failure, although it's not conclusive. Generally, a slight loss of coolant alongside starting on three cylinders and a rough idle are good indicators of a HG going.

White smoke from the exhaust shortly after start-up is another.

I would recommend a sniff test once the engine is up to temperature. It should give more information.
Compression tests are ok to find out if you've got a gasket failing between cylinders, but it won't really show up if you've got a nick in the water jacket part of the gasket. No

Get a sniff test done and let us know the results. Smile

________________________________________

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Posted 10th Oct 2013 at 18:28
daver6

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Post #7
Sniff test being a Co2 monitor in the header tank?

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Posted 10th Oct 2013 at 18:36
stan_306gti6 Forum Admin

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Post #8
daver6 wrote:
Sniff test being a Co2 monitor in the header tank?


Yes

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2000 (X), Moonstone Love
Posted 10th Oct 2013 at 19:02
daver6

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Post #9
And if the HG is dead and leaking to water, we'll see the hydrocarbon levels rise as the engine is running?

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Posted 10th Oct 2013 at 19:33
RetroPug

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Post #10
Yep will get a sniff test soon, and will update!

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61k miles Ph.1 Diablo '6 Project Thread
Posted 10th Oct 2013 at 23:11
stan_306gti6 Forum Admin

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Post #11
daver6 wrote:
And if the HG is dead and leaking to water, we'll see the hydrocarbon levels rise as the engine is running?


Yes. Generally, the fluid used is a blue colour when you start the process and as hydrocarbons enter it, the fluid goes a green/yellow colour if the HG is going. Yes

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"Supercharged - 454.1bhp/317.5lb/ft"
Peugeot 306 GTi-6
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Posted 11th Oct 2013 at 07:17
RetroPug

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Post #12
stan_306gti6 wrote:
daver6 wrote:
And if the HG is dead and leaking to water, we'll see the hydrocarbon levels rise as the engine is running?


Yes. Generally, the fluid used is a blue colour when you start the process and as hydrocarbons enter it, the fluid goes a green/yellow colour if the HG is going. Yes


Yeah seen loads of them on ebay for 35 quid or so, was thinking it would probably be cheaper just to see if a local garage will do it for cheap, or use their MOT emissions tester.

Still waiting on bits to reassemble the intake and airbox and then I'll get it tested.

Any members on here do HG replacements that are in range of me? If so, PM me with a quote please.

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61k miles Ph.1 Diablo '6 Project Thread
Posted 11th Oct 2013 at 10:58
stan_306gti6 Forum Admin

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Post #13
RetroPug wrote:
stan_306gti6 wrote:
daver6 wrote:
And if the HG is dead and leaking to water, we'll see the hydrocarbon levels rise as the engine is running?


Yes. Generally, the fluid used is a blue colour when you start the process and as hydrocarbons enter it, the fluid goes a green/yellow colour if the HG is going. Yes


Yeah seen loads of them on ebay for 35 quid or so, was thinking it would probably be cheaper just to see if a local garage will do it for cheap, or use their MOT emissions tester.

Still waiting on bits to reassemble the intake and airbox and then I'll get it tested.

Any members on here do HG replacements that are in range of me? If so, PM me with a quote please.


You can't use an MOT emissions tester, a 'sniff tester' is a proper piece of equipment using fluids. It's not something you can just stick in the header tank like you can poke it up the exhaust of a car.

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Peugeot 306 GTi-6
2000 (X), Moonstone Love
Posted 11th Oct 2013 at 12:12
RetroPug

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Post #14
stan_306gti6 wrote:
You can't use an MOT emissions tester, a 'sniff tester' is a proper piece of equipment using fluids. It's not something you can just stick in the header tank like you can poke it up the exhaust of a car.

I'd have thought holding it above the open rad cap would detect hydrocarbons in the air? Prepared to stand corrected though.

Obviously a proper sniff test is the way to go and I don't want there to be any doubt so I'll do that.

Thanks

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61k miles Ph.1 Diablo '6 Project Thread
Posted 11th Oct 2013 at 13:49
jimmyhackers

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Post #15
remove the lip thats formed inside your ICV. the metal valve head on the stepper motor will have squashed an air flow messing up lip in the plastic housing.

bit of emery paper after youve taken it apart and bobs your uncle. fanny's your aunt and maybe your cars idle might fix itself.

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the world is changed by people in sheds
Posted 12th Oct 2013 at 01:06
RetroPug

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Post #16
Hmm. I didn't notice any plastic lips that had formed in there.
I did clean it all out and make sure it all looked good.

I don't think the ICV is causing these issues, it seems to only idle roughly when hot.

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61k miles Ph.1 Diablo '6 Project Thread
Posted 12th Oct 2013 at 09:39
jimmyhackers

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Post #17
hm...... which means...... either somethigns getting hot and expending messing up a tollerance. which i doubt

or when the ecu switches over to "operating tempreture" ecu running mode, one of the sensors it takes its reading from is on its way out.

have you replaced the o2 lambda sensor yet? this be the main one after your engine gets up to temp

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Posted 13th Oct 2013 at 14:55
rich306

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Post #18
I've just cured my lazy starts when cold, the Starter motor had lost it's effectiveness.
I put a diesel one in and it starts on the button every time!

This doesn't sound like Head gasket mate, But this does sound like sensor related issues!

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Posted 13th Oct 2013 at 15:16
RetroPug

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Post #19
jimmyhackers wrote:
hm...... which means...... either somethigns getting hot and expending messing up a tollerance. which i doubt

or when the ecu switches over to "operating tempreture" ecu running mode, one of the sensors it takes its reading from is on its way out.

have you replaced the o2 lambda sensor yet? this be the main one after your engine gets up to temp


No. I haven't noticed a drop-off in fuel economy at all so the O2 sensor seems to be doing its job.
I did suspect a sensor for quite a while. I'd like to test them all with a multimeter I'm just not sure exactly how.

I really must emphasise that the "running rough" is ever so slight and that passengers don't even notice it. I can just see the needle twitching ever so slightly and can feel it a tiny bit. It is definitely there though, when it does occur.

rich306 wrote:
I've just cured my lazy starts when cold, the Starter motor had lost it's effectiveness.
I put a diesel one in and it starts on the button every time!

This doesn't sound like Head gasket mate, But this does sound like sensor related issues!

I think the starter motor is fine, it is cranking just as fast as it should from the sound of it, just it is cranking for too long when cold and sometimes needs throttle encouragement. My air filter was very dusty from back home and that's being changed.

As for sensors, like I said above, I'd like to test sensors that could potentially be causing this I'm just not sure how. Can anyone give me an idea of how to do this? I've already replaced the CTS. When I put a new airbox in I might try resetting the ECU just to see what happens.

I'd still like to get this sniff-tested though as that'll tell me for sure.

So anyone know how to test any sensors that might be the problem? Edit: just found the FAQ

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61k miles Ph.1 Diablo '6 Project Thread
Posted 14th Oct 2013 at 13:59
RetroPug

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Post #20
I think my HG might have gone this morning.

There's a petrol station literally 50m away, I started the car and drove there, no issues...upon starting the car after filling there was a strange noise, almost like a scrape or hiss but not sure. Since then, if I rev the engine while out of gear after the revs peak there is a definite water bubbling noise... I drove round the block and got back home, I got out and noticed that at stand still there is a fair bit of exhaust plume and when I rev the engine it is huge, which could well be steam. There was a tiny puddle under the exhaust as well, it was black but I think that is soot from the exhaust.

Funnily enough the car still pulls absolutely fine.

I'm guessing these are classic HG gone and letting combustion gasses into the coolant symptoms?

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61k miles Ph.1 Diablo '6 Project Thread
Posted 18th Oct 2013 at 11:00
ryangti6

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Post #21
Certainly sounds like it, as I said above if you continue to drive it you are risking the head being totally f**ked and not only that but if your oil is being affected doing damage to the bottom end hence It's no coincidence a lot of people suffer bottom end failure shortly after having headgasket repairs.

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Ryan
Posted 18th Oct 2013 at 12:05
RetroPug

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Post #22
Yep, not driving it any more.
I'm totally gutted to be honest, and really not sure what to do.

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61k miles Ph.1 Diablo '6 Project Thread
Posted 18th Oct 2013 at 12:07
rikky 🦔

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Post #23
buy some tools and get busy, it won't fix itself!

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Posted 18th Oct 2013 at 12:09
RetroPug

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Post #24
Pretty sure I've got most of the necessary tools. Sockets, ratchets, spanners, torx bits etc.
I've only got the road to work on but I could have a go myself.

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61k miles Ph.1 Diablo '6 Project Thread
Posted 18th Oct 2013 at 12:41
ryangti6

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Post #25
If your fairly handy with spanners have a go yourself, although it may be a bit daunting they aren't that hard to do. If you can do it yourself you'll be looking at about £300 to fix it.

Edit: just seen your reply so I'd say do it, only 'special' tool you will need really is a good torque wrench

________________________________________

Ryan
Posted 18th Oct 2013 at 12:43

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