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displaying posts 1 to 25 of 41
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| Author | Subject: cams |
 maddriver9
Regular  Location: nr leek Registered: 12 Mar 2008 Posts: 341 Status: Offline |
Post #1
thinkin off buying catcams but to fit the oil spray bar has to be removed cause there so wild and uprated catcam springs but there only singles wat are your thoughts ppl?________________________________________ 178bhp 205gti6¼ mile in 14.2 |
 Posted 11th Feb 2011 at 00:08
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daveyboy
aka Jim Davey  Location: Southampton Registered: 01 Oct 2007 Posts: 8,648 Status: Offline |
Post #2
If the cams are high enough lift to need the spray bars modifying to clear, then you will also need pocketed pistons. Personally I would'nt entertain the idea of removing the oil spray bars unless you want your valve-gear to take a real hammering on start-up.________________________________________ R H Davey Welding Supplies. I sell new and used welding equipment in the Hampshire area. I take on welding jobs in the evenings, ally casting repairs are one of my specialities but I can weld pretty much anything. PM me with your requirements.Some of my services: (See my for sale threads) Engine mount/chassis repair Solid Beam Mounts BACK IN PRODUCTION Harness bars |
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Posted 11th Feb 2011 at 00:24
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james_gti6
Senior User  Location: Goodwick Registered: 18 Jan 2010 Posts: 528 Status: Offline |
Post #3
also the spray bars are there for a reason, iv seen the cam lobes wear because they are not lubricated.just modify them ________________________________________ if i dont see you in the mattress il see you in the spring |
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Posted 11th Feb 2011 at 00:34
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maddriver9
Regular Location: nr leek Registered: 12 Mar 2008 Posts: 341 Status: Offline |
Post #4
ive got omega hi comp 1mm over size to go with my throttle bodies.spoke to catcams an say, they and others run without spray bars cus it doest need them, there's enough oil up top. i dont know just seeing how others think about spray bars an valve springs. cus i will be putting single valve springs in up rated thow. Due to standard doulble valve springs not been up to job of wat am doing?________________________________________ 178bhp 205gti6¼ mile in 14.2 |
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Posted 11th Feb 2011 at 00:49
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james_gti6
Senior User Location: Goodwick Registered: 18 Jan 2010 Posts: 528 Status: Offline |
Post #5
you will have to write it out better than that bud, it doesnt really make that much sense, use punctuation ________________________________________ if i dont see you in the mattress il see you in the spring |
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Posted 11th Feb 2011 at 00:52
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maddriver9
Regular Location: nr leek Registered: 12 Mar 2008 Posts: 341 Status: Offline |
Post #6
edited ________________________________________ 178bhp 205gti6¼ mile in 14.2 |
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Posted 11th Feb 2011 at 00:50
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daveyboy
aka Jim Davey Location: Southampton Registered: 01 Oct 2007 Posts: 8,648 Status: Offline |
Post #7
maddriver9 wrote: ive got omega hi comp 1mm over size to go with my throttle bodies.spoke to catcams an say, they and others run without spray bars cus it doest need them, there's enough oil up top. i dont know just seeing how others think about spray bars an valve springs. cus i will be putting single valve springs in up rated thow. Due to standard doulble valve springs not been up to job of wat am doing? If you decide to ditch the spray bars (bad idea, and I would'nt do it on my engine, the manufacturers put them there for a reason) then you need to put in some restrictors in the oil spray bar feed holes, otherwise you will lose pressure to the hydraulic lifters. ________________________________________ R H Davey Welding Supplies. I sell new and used welding equipment in the Hampshire area. I take on welding jobs in the evenings, ally casting repairs are one of my specialities but I can weld pretty much anything. PM me with your requirements.Some of my services: (See my for sale threads) Engine mount/chassis repair Solid Beam Mounts BACK IN PRODUCTION Harness bars |
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Posted 11th Feb 2011 at 01:01
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welshpug!
Capt Pedantic  Location: Bigend, Wales. Registered: 27 Mar 2007 Posts: 25,839 Status: Offline |
Post #8
speak to an engine builder  only the RS variant of this head has the spray bars, the XU7 and XU10J4R don't have them, and there's a fair few race spec engines about with these aforementioned heads by now  ________________________________________ need a part number? get on here - http://public.servicebox.peugeot.comBring on the Trumpets. |
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Posted 11th Feb 2011 at 01:02
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maddriver9
Regular Location: nr leek Registered: 12 Mar 2008 Posts: 341 Status: Offline |
Post #9
i'm the engine builder lol credit crunch an all that.i know about blocking the oil spray bar feeds of. i spoke to pug one off an they said the rs only had spray bars.they said there running a 300bhp na engine with no spray bars.am i mad or not. i just want max power. i got pistons to put in,and throttle bodies, and omex. plus these cams (biggest catcams on hydrolic lifters an valve springs) are going cheap so just thouht wat the hell.?plus some one just said to me that these single catcam springs wont have spring seats as catcams dont use them?________________________________________ 178bhp 205gti6¼ mile in 14.2 |
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Posted 11th Feb 2011 at 02:17
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welshpug!
Capt Pedantic Location: Bigend, Wales. Registered: 27 Mar 2007 Posts: 25,839 Status: Offline |
Post #10
I'd suggest speaking to a proper engine builder I meant, one with race/rally engine experience.Sandy Brown would be a good call ________________________________________ need a part number? get on here - http://public.servicebox.peugeot.comBring on the Trumpets. |
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Posted 11th Feb 2011 at 02:24
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maddriver9
Regular Location: nr leek Registered: 12 Mar 2008 Posts: 341 Status: Offline |
Post #11
phone no? an will he be ok with some one picking his brains ________________________________________ 178bhp 205gti6¼ mile in 14.2 |
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Posted 11th Feb 2011 at 02:28
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mad scientist
Junior User  Location: Stoke Registered: 17 Nov 2008 Posts: 81 Status: Offline |
Post #12
OK here's a few things to think about.With the 110's you will need to remove the oil spray bars. As said, the feeds will then need blocking. This is not a problem. There is more than enough splash to keep the cams lubricated. They will need fairly large valve cutouts in the pistons, and the valve clearance will need checking with a dial gauge and plasticine. They need timing up with a dial gauge. The standard timing pin holes are useless to you. Catcams told me to run their single springs and retainers, with the spring seats removed. I did not do this. I ran Piper double springs on the standard seats with catcams retainers (as this is what I had). Either way, the valve springs need checking at full lift to make sure they are not coil bound. I did not use the Catcams springs as the earlier ones suffered with some failures. Not what you want to happed on an expensive engine. Sandy has seen this first hand. I also did not want to run any spring directly on the alloy head. Despite the catcams springs being machined very well (flat) they may rotate and damage the alloy head. Not ideal. Hope this helps. ________________________________________ 205 rally car with 2.2 hybrid 6 engine: phase 2 engine build underway. |
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Posted 11th Feb 2011 at 02:43
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james_gti6
Senior User Location: Goodwick Registered: 18 Jan 2010 Posts: 528 Status: Offline |
Post #13
mad scientist wrote: OK here's a few things to think about. With the 110's you will need to remove the oil spray bars. As said, the feeds will then need blocking. This is not a problem. There is more than enough splash to keep the cams lubricated. They will need fairly large valve cutouts in the pistons, and the valve clearance will need checking with a dial gauge and plasticine. They need timing up with a dial gauge. The standard timing pin holes are useless to you. Catcams told me to run their single springs and retainers, with the spring seats removed. I did not do this. I ran Piper double springs on the standard seats with catcams retainers (as this is what I had). Either way, the valve springs need checking at full lift to make sure they are not coil bound. I did not use the Catcams springs as the earlier ones suffered with some failures. Not what you want to happed on an expensive engine. Sandy has seen this first hand. I also did not want to run any spring directly on the alloy head. Despite the catcams springs being machined very well (flat) they may rotate and damage the alloy head. Not ideal. Hope this helps. if you want to f*ck your engine, listen to this bloke, do you really think peugeot put the oil spray bars for a joke, there is a member on this site who has fitted the same set of catams and had problems because he threw the oil spray bars in the bin, the lobe on the cam wore away and he had engine damage. ________________________________________ if i dont see you in the mattress il see you in the spring |
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Posted 11th Feb 2011 at 02:52
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daveyboy
aka Jim Davey Location: Southampton Registered: 01 Oct 2007 Posts: 8,648 Status: Offline |
Post #14
You need at least 1-1.2mm of clearance between the tightest coils at full lift (This is easy to check with a piece of 1.2mm MIG wire) if it wont slide between the coils easily you risk breaking a spring. If running double springs you need to carry out the same test on the smaller inner spring too.________________________________________ R H Davey Welding Supplies. I sell new and used welding equipment in the Hampshire area. I take on welding jobs in the evenings, ally casting repairs are one of my specialities but I can weld pretty much anything. PM me with your requirements.Some of my services: (See my for sale threads) Engine mount/chassis repair Solid Beam Mounts BACK IN PRODUCTION Harness bars |
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Posted 11th Feb 2011 at 02:55
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chrisgti
Regular Location: chinnor Registered: 08 Jan 2007 Posts: 336 Status: Offline |
Post #15
Well I would say pug1off are one of the best engine builders about, mine is not running the spray bars and has not done for a year now.________________________________________ 270 bhp N/A Made by pug1off¼ mile 13.6 |
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Posted 11th Feb 2011 at 03:00
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mad scientist
Junior User Location: Stoke Registered: 17 Nov 2008 Posts: 81 Status: Offline |
Post #16
I would be careful about what you suggest on a public forum. Ask Sandy if he has removed the oil spray bars on any of the engines he has built. The answer is yes. Including a c.280bhp XU7 head based engine which don't run the spray bars. You can't just take them out and bin them. The feed needs blocking with brass.I would be inclined to suggest you do not know enough about this subject to comment in such a hostile manner. For the record, my fully blueprinted rally car engine runs just fine without any oil spray bars. It sits at 7500rpm. I have removed the cam covers and inspected the valve train and cams several times. There is no wear. ________________________________________ 205 rally car with 2.2 hybrid 6 engine: phase 2 engine build underway. |
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Posted 11th Feb 2011 at 02:58
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james_gti6
Senior User Location: Goodwick Registered: 18 Jan 2010 Posts: 528 Status: Offline |
Post #17
chrisgti wrote: Well I would say pug1off are one of the best engine builders about, mine is not running the spray bars and has not done for a year now. best engine builders about, dont think so ________________________________________ if i dont see you in the mattress il see you in the spring |
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Posted 11th Feb 2011 at 02:58
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chrisgti
Regular Location: chinnor Registered: 08 Jan 2007 Posts: 336 Status: Offline |
Post #18
Well not many companies get the same power out of these engines ________________________________________ 270 bhp N/A Made by pug1off¼ mile 13.6 |
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Posted 11th Feb 2011 at 03:02
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daveyboy
aka Jim Davey Location: Southampton Registered: 01 Oct 2007 Posts: 8,648 Status: Offline |
Post #19
I fail to see how people can say it's not doing damage (How would you know?) most of the wear occurs on start up, and the cams will be the last thing to get oil as they are the highest point in the engine. Why do you think hydraulic lifters tap until they fill up (takes a few seconds does'nt it?) and at tickover there will be sod all splash going on. I should'nt imagine your Rally car gets anything like the miles put on it that a road car does so the circumstances are entirely different. Your car will also probably not be subjected to long periods at idle like a road car does. If you start the engine and keep blipping the throttle to promote splash and faster warm-up then yes, loosing the spray bars should'nt have much of an effect, but most people don't fire up their cars this way (Not if they don't want their neighbours to pour brake fluid on their bonnet one night!) removing the spray bars on a car with stronger valve springs and higher lift cams is just asking for galling and metal to metal contact. And there is no way you can say the risk is'nt higher, because it just is. Find a way to modify the spray bars, or put up with reduced cam/lifter life, simple as that. I'm not saying they will fail, now, next week or even in the next two years, but you will certainly be getting more wear than the engine with the functioning bars, period.________________________________________ R H Davey Welding Supplies. I sell new and used welding equipment in the Hampshire area. I take on welding jobs in the evenings, ally casting repairs are one of my specialities but I can weld pretty much anything. PM me with your requirements.Some of my services: (See my for sale threads) Engine mount/chassis repair Solid Beam Mounts BACK IN PRODUCTION Harness bars |
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Posted 11th Feb 2011 at 03:09
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james_gti6
Senior User Location: Goodwick Registered: 18 Jan 2010 Posts: 528 Status: Offline |
Post #20
daveyboy wrote: I fail to see how people can say it's not doing damage (How would you know?) most of the wear occurs on start up, and the cams will be the last thing to get oil as they are the highest point in the engine. Why do you think hydraulic lifters tap until they fill up (takes a few seconds does'nt it?) and at tickover there will be sod all splash going on. I should'nt imagine your Rally car gets anything like the miles put on it that a road car does so the circumstances are entirely different. Your car will also probably not be subjected to long periods at idle like a road car does. If you start the engine and keep blipping the throttle to promote splash and faster warm-up then yes, loosing the spray bars should'nt have much of an effect, but most people don't fire up their cars this way (Not if they don't want their neighbours to pour brake fluid on their bonnet one night!) removing the spray bars on a car with stronger valve springs and higher lift cams is just asking for galling and metal to metal contact. And there is no way you can say the risk is'nt higher, because it just is. Find a way to modify the spray bars, or put up with reduced cam/lifter life, simple as that. I'm not saying they will fail, now, next week or even in the next two years, but you will certainly be getting more wear than the engine with the functioning bars, period. thank you, somebody with a bit of knowledge, ________________________________________ if i dont see you in the mattress il see you in the spring |
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Posted 11th Feb 2011 at 03:11
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miles
Seasoned Pro  Location: Ringwood Registered: 28 Dec 2002 Posts: 3,433 Status: Offline |
Post #21
Easy points hereSpray bars are meant for production engine's and Milages, Remove them, (I dont think the std R engine has them anyway ) and you will reduce the life span but with any uprated part you cannot think it will last 250k + You must check clearance's even with Forged Pistons, every engine is different Springs, Always use new to suit the cam spec. For that sort of Cam I would go solid lifter's, Saves allot of hassle really even thou it will cost abit more As for engine builders, There is only one company I trust for high perforamce engine's, thats Sodemo then only 2 in the UK ________________________________________ 306 Rallye Sptint/Race Car, 205 CTI 1.9 8v to name a fewRoad, Track and Race/Rally car preparation to your personal requirements, Full Workshop & Diagnostic Facilities New and Second parts, from Plugs to Turbo's We now also carry out Routine Servicing www.pugracing.com & FB Page, https://www.facebook.com/PugRacing Ebay; http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Pug-Racing-Shop 2012/2013/2014/2019 Class Winners at Gurston Down Speed Hillclimb & Joint overall, Class record too along the way, |
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Posted 11th Feb 2011 at 03:14
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mad scientist
Junior User Location: Stoke Registered: 17 Nov 2008 Posts: 81 Status: Offline |
Post #22
I'm not being funny, but have you ever seen how much oil pools in a 6 heads cam lobe recesses?How much splash do you think you need? The cams are rotating at about 10 times a second at idle. If you want to see how much splash you get, take the oil filler cap off next time your bonnet is open and the car is running. If its done correctly, it is not an issue. It is tried and tested. ________________________________________ 205 rally car with 2.2 hybrid 6 engine: phase 2 engine build underway. |
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Posted 11th Feb 2011 at 03:15
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maddriver9
Regular Location: nr leek Registered: 12 Mar 2008 Posts: 341 Status: Offline |
Post #23
i just need more power and reliability so maybee piper doulble springs instead of the cat ones but how much they cost cus i'm a builder an not million dollar man.i was told i should make 220 horse with my 87mm hi comp pistons throttle bodies omex and these cams that are for sale on here. does any one know this chap who's sellin them in the for sale section.________________________________________ 178bhp 205gti6¼ mile in 14.2 |
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Posted 11th Feb 2011 at 03:18
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maddriver9
Regular Location: nr leek Registered: 12 Mar 2008 Posts: 341 Status: Offline |
Post #24
i know its a different engine but cosworths dont run spay bars and they are good engine?________________________________________ 178bhp 205gti6¼ mile in 14.2 |
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Posted 11th Feb 2011 at 03:24
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daveyboy
aka Jim Davey Location: Southampton Registered: 01 Oct 2007 Posts: 8,648 Status: Offline |
Post #25
mad scientist wrote: I'm not being funny, but have you ever seen how much oil pools in a 6 heads cam lobe recesses? How much splash do you think you need? The cams are rotating at about 10 times a second at idle. If you want to see how much splash you get, take the oil filler cap off next time your bonnet is open and the car is running. If its done correctly, it is not an issue. It is tried and tested. I'm not saying there is'nt enough oil mist once running, it's start-up and the few seconds after when the wear occurs. And oil in the cam lifter recesses is going to stay where it's at as there is nothing to shift it. It's oil on the cam you want, not puddles all round it. There will always be two schools of thought on this, personal choice would be to retain the bars if at all possible. ________________________________________ R H Davey Welding Supplies. I sell new and used welding equipment in the Hampshire area. I take on welding jobs in the evenings, ally casting repairs are one of my specialities but I can weld pretty much anything. PM me with your requirements.Some of my services: (See my for sale threads) Engine mount/chassis repair Solid Beam Mounts BACK IN PRODUCTION Harness bars |
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Posted 11th Feb 2011 at 03:58
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