Do i need new valve springs? - Engines Forum - Peugeot 306 GTi-6 & Rallye Owners Club

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Subject: Do i need new valve springs?

pugheaven

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Post #1

Iv got my self a set of piper 285 cams and i am just wondering if i need to buy pipers valve springs?

The piper site suggests i do but iv had a search and have read the following:

Welshpug suggests in bretts thread that they are not needed as the rs head already has double valve spring.

And

RichE suggests that the standard valve springs can cope but will bottom out at 12mm of lift.

The 285 cams have a full lift of 11.05mm so should be ok.

The valve springs are 220 plus vat, also would i need new piper retainers or would the standard retainers fit the piper springs?

Will the oil spray bars be ok with these cams?

Does anyone know the installed length of the springs and what the crush height is with standard rs valve springs

Thanks for your help in advance.

Posted 28th Mar 2010 at 22:27

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welshpug!

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Post #2

I'd worry about the lack of clearance between valves and pistons before the springs myself !

check with Sandy or QEP or anyone else who builds N/A pug engines if they'll work on standard springs, I can see it being much of an issue if they don't go coilbound unless its a race car that's going to be spending its life near the limiter.

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Posted 28th Mar 2010 at 22:47

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mxcrazy

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Post #3

'More than 10.9mm lift is going to reduce the spring coil gaps to too little and will clash with the spray bars, which can be blanked and removed.'

That is what Sandy Brown said to me when i asked the exact same question.

Yes they can take more than 10.9 mm lift before going coilbound, but you dont want them to go coilbound, thats the point.

Posted 28th Mar 2010 at 22:55

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mxcrazy

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Post #4

oh, and if piper suggest to do so, id probably do that to be honest. or just ring them on monday and double check.

Failing that sell the pipers and get some Newman PH2's for

Posted 28th Mar 2010 at 22:59

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welshpug!

Capt Pedantic

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Post #5

sounds like some valve springs and retainers are required then Doh

looking at the piper catalogue the 285 is for solid tappets which is an extra cost on top of new springs and retainers.

as well as a set of pistons.

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Posted 28th Mar 2010 at 23:04

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pugheaven

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Post #6

got longmans rods and pug sport group a pistons so no need to worry about piston clearance. Goin to give piper a bell tomoro just wanted other advice. Plan is to use my pistons and rods with the 285s and longmans head with throttle bodies but is working out more expensive with value springs, retainers and lifters!

Posted 28th Mar 2010 at 23:06

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mxcrazy

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Post #7

Do the job properly and do it once though, no point in just using the cams because you have them, you need to decide what you want from the engine, usable everyday engine, or a high revving screamer track/race engine.

What is you compression ratio?

Posted 28th Mar 2010 at 23:28

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pugheaven

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Post #8

any other suggestions on bits to get would be good. Will have to look into the newmen cams. It doesnt say on the piper site that they require solid tappets!

Posted 28th Mar 2010 at 23:31

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pugheaven

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Post #9

i believe the cr is 11.5.1 will be used as track car but will use it for weekend use on the road.

Posted 28th Mar 2010 at 23:37

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welshpug!

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Post #10

it does if you look at the clearance column, Hydraulic = zero clearance, solid = 0.25/0.30mm.

Piper 285's look very similar on paper to a Newman PH4.

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Posted 28th Mar 2010 at 23:53

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mxcrazy

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Post #11

pugheaven wrote:

any other suggestions on bits to get would be good. Will have to look into the newmen cams. It doesnt say on the piper site that they require solid tappets!

It doesnt say you need solid lifters, but if you look at the specs it gives you recommended valve clearances, which you can only 'assume' means that they are for use with solid lifters.

Im not going lairy with my cams (newman PH2) because im not building a 'high' RPM motor, i want to retain a reasonably low rev limit but my emphasis is on torque and a spread of power.

Using the PH2 means i dont have to use non - oem springs or modify the head/remove spray bars.

If you want to rev beyond 8000rpm you will want to use solid lifters anyway.

I estimate my redline is going to be around 7500/7600, i dont know yet.

You may want to rev beyond 8000 anyway with a 2 litre engine, you have the rods and pistons to do it it seems.

Posted 28th Mar 2010 at 23:55

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pugheaven

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Post #12

not plannin on goin past 8k what kind of figures would i be lookin at with the newman ph2 with the other mods i have. I also have a maniflow manifold to go with this lot.

Posted 29th Mar 2010 at 00:00

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pugheaven

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Post #13

didnt notice that bit in the end columb must of been lookin at 270h spec at that point.

Posted 29th Mar 2010 at 00:03

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welshpug!

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Post #14

stock inlet or ITB's?

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Posted 29th Mar 2010 at 00:19

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pugheaven

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Post #15

itbs but using a chadil manifold which im not too sure about?

Posted 29th Mar 2010 at 00:23

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mxcrazy

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Post #16

What maniflow manifold do you have, there are 2 types that they offer as stock.

On ITB's using the revs you have available id imagine youd see 220+ bhp with a newman Ph2 spec ish. Maybe more, hard to tell, depends who maps it, what size bodies, tract lengths, cam timing etc etc.

Posted 29th Mar 2010 at 00:42

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pugheaven

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Post #17

I think my maniflow manifold is the thinner diameter one they sell, iv got 45s jenveys with a chadill inlet manifold but im not aware of anyone else using that make, not sure on track length yet, was hoping to take a selection of trumpets when it gets mapped. Iv got kms management but not sure who to go to yet.

Posted 29th Mar 2010 at 00:49

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mxcrazy

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Post #18

Manifolds are a minefield, they can be the make or break of what power you see, if you are going to end up making max power at a fair higher RPM (7000+) than stock then the 'race' manifold from maniflow would be ideal, if you are building an engine thats going to retain a max power figure under 7000 rpm, closer to stock, then the 'road' manifold is the one to use, i think ours must be the road type to be honest, where did you get it?

Posted 29th Mar 2010 at 01:13

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pugheaven

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Post #19

from maniflow but was years ago when i had the head done and 270 cams, just want more power so got the forged stuff, bodies and management. I havent got the 285s yet but ment to be gettin them next week. I was only goin to go to 7800rpm as the max power band is that on the 285s. Im after around 230hp but not sure if i want to spend that much on valve springs etc.

Posted 29th Mar 2010 at 01:25

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pugheaven

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Post #20

iirc my exhaust manifold is ok upto 250 hp so i think ill be ok with this one. Hopefully.

Posted 29th Mar 2010 at 01:29

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mxcrazy

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Post #21

Be a shame to have spent and done what you have and not put the more lairy cams in though.

Got any pics of the manifold?

Posted 29th Mar 2010 at 01:37

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pugheaven

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Post #22

I dont have any pics of the exhaust manifold atm but can take some tomoro but the engine is still in the car so wont be a good pic. If i can get a set of cams that will give me 230hp+ that dont need value springs retainers and solid lifters i would rather get them, if not ill just keep the pipers and spunk more on it!

Posted 29th Mar 2010 at 01:47

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mxcrazy

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Post #23

I dont know about the catcams range? they do a F.I.A spec cam with low reasonably low lift but a fair amount of duration, might be worth a call to QEP about them, or other catcams.

Its something you need to talk to piper, kent, newman QEP etc about.

EDIT, oh and dont worry about the manifold pics, was just being nosey.

Posted 29th Mar 2010 at 01:56

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welshpug!

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Post #24

you could ask an engine builder what they thik the percieved power+torque outputs would be from the spec of certain cams given the right compression ratio and a properly matched inlet and exhaust manifold.

I know DrSarty on the 205gtidrivers forum has well over 230 bhp from just a peterT stage 1 inlet cam sandy's bodies and an off the shelf maniflow, but he is running a 2.2 bottom end.

FIA cam would be something like a group N cam like the 306 touring cars ran, not really ideal, something designed properly without the restrictions of race regs would be far better.

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Bring on the Trumpets.

Posted 29th Mar 2010 at 01:55

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pugheaven

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Post #25

ok thanks for the help lads. Rather come on here and get your opinions first before i waste a companys time.

Posted 29th Mar 2010 at 02:00

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