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Author Subject: Standard OEM Suspension
iplay

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Post #1
I reverted back to standard suspension on the font at the weekend.

Taking corners again is effortless and whilst there is a little more roll on the front (removing Bilstein B4's) and a little less effect on anchoring on the brakes in a straight line. The upside of having a car suspension in harmony with all the suspension components has put the fun back into the car. The set-up reminds me of good old 205 days. The fun factor is definitely back along with 'permagrin' on my face! Cool Also got a big thumbs up from my wife who commented on how effortlessly the car was taking the corners.

I realise this is against the normal trend on this site for lowering ride height, upgrading suspension, stiffening up anti-roll-bars and mounts etc. But the overall effect makes a car that is so much more fun to drive. Even with a little more roll the speed at which the car can take corners and retain grip is noticeable.

I think adding stiffer sidewall tyres on the front with flexible sidewalls (PE2's on the rear) is also the right way to go for steering feedback and comfort. Saying all the above I still have to see how the car handles LOOS (which was all but eliminated on previous setup) and will be fine tuning rear ride height to get the most out of B roads.
Posted 3rd Mar 2010 at 18:54
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adam b

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Post #2
No you just weren't trying hard enough if you thought it was eliminated Ninja

It will be very predicatble on the PE2s - I like them a lot for it.

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Posted 5th Mar 2010 at 04:11
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306matt

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Post #3
Are you back on OE shocks from Peugeot?

What model are those?

I know how you feel, had a standard OE front lower engine mount put back on, no more vibrations.

Niiiice.

Matt

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Posted 7th Mar 2010 at 00:08
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greenbelt

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Post #4
What ride height is the rear beam?

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Posted 7th Mar 2010 at 00:33
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iplay

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Post #5
Front and back are standard Peugeot OEM shocks with 330mm between rear shock bolts. Only non standard components are ultimax discs and DS2500 pads and Rich_W lightened flywheel.

Although I am raising the rear slightly (mm) at some point as the car is a little lazy around long corners.
Posted 7th Mar 2010 at 02:26
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chas

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Post #6
What setup did you have before going standard?

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Posted 7th Mar 2010 at 03:34
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iplay

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Post #7
chas wrote:
What setup did you have before going standard?


I have been swapping components over the last year on the front with stiffer springs and dampers - standard rear.
Posted 8th Mar 2010 at 16:00
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iplay

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Post #8
I hav been messing around with the rear ride heights over the last 12 months ... lost count of how many times the rear has been adjusted but it has been educational if nothing else ... getting close now to optimum for my car and the small twisty B roads it travels.

Last night I just ruined the set-up in post#1 ... raised the rear by 2mm on the dummy shock (6mm on the rear). It was 330mm between shock bolts and is now 332mm and it has totally messed up the entire setup. I can't believe such a small adjustment can make such a difference in so many areas of the car.

330mm between shock bolts: was a bit lazy turning in around long corners and felt like i had a boot full with suspension feeling too firm on the rear. car could accelerate all day long and not feather the front tyres. minimal wear to the outside tyre walls. rear arch looked a bit pinch at 12 oclock to the tyre compared to 3 and 9 oclock points ... I wanted a uniform gap visually. Front and Rear jacking point heights gave a 8mm difference (rake?)

332mm between shock bolts: turn-in feels right (although i have been told that i should have adjusted toe in a bit? and not rear ride height?), suspension feel like both front and rear are compressing together. grip on car acceleration is not on outer limits when accelerating. breaking is much improved - i think the car must be sitting on a point in-front of the front wheel axis (not sure of the technical name for this). rear gap between tyre and arch is constant - looks good imho. the downside is that the rear of the car is now rolling through fast corners but takes slow corners very well (can feel the tyres taking a bigger bashing).

335mm between shock bolts ... feels like a hover craft or beach buggy suspension! turned in like a mini! enough said.

This leaves just one possible option of 331 between shock bolts using a dummy shock. Hopefully this will take out the rear end roll on fast corners ... not that i can take another night of -3 degrees!
Posted 8th Mar 2010 at 16:34
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dented_vts

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Post #9
iplay wrote:
I hav been messing around with the rear ride heights over the last 12 months ... lost count of how many times the rear has been adjusted but it has been educational if nothing else ... getting close now to optimum for my car and the small twisty B roads it travels.

Last night I just ruined the set-up in post#1 ... raised the rear by 2mm on the dummy shock (6mm on the rear). It was 330mm between shock bolts and is now 332mm and it has totally messed up the entire setup. I can't believe such a small adjustment can make such a difference in so many areas of the car.

330mm between shock bolts: was a bit lazy turning in around long corners and felt like i had a boot full with suspension feeling too firm on the rear. car could accelerate all day long and not feather the front tyres. minimal wear to the outside tyre walls. rear arch looked a bit pinch at 12 oclock to the tyre compared to 3 and 9 oclock points ... i wanted a uniform gap visually. i was not sure if

332mm between shock bolts: turn-in feels right (although i have been told that i should have adjusted toe in a bit? and not rear ride height?), suspension feel like both front and rear are compressing together. grip on car acceleration is not on outer limits when accelerating. breaking is much improved - i think the car must be sitting on a point in-front of the front wheel axis (not sure of the technical name for this). rear gap between tyre and arch is constant - looks good imho. the downside is that the rear of the car is now rolling through fast corners but takes slow corners very well (can feel the tyres taking a bigger bashing).

335mm between shock bolts ... feels like a hover craft or beach buggy suspension! turned in like a mini! enough said.

This leaves just one possible option of 331 between shock bolts using a dummy shock. Hopefully this will take out the rear end roll on fast corners ... not that i can take another night of -3 degrees!


An interesting post and just goes to show that when you change one aspect of the suspension you have to change everything else to get a good result. Springs and damper rates have to be matched for best performance- when you see a manufacturer selling one damper to cover a whole range of cars as with the gti-6 you know that they are not ideal for all those situations. I will have to measure the distance between my shock bolts and see where mine is.

I need to revamp the front suspension of my tired VTS- checking Citroen and Peugeot servicebox i note the Xsara VTS dampers are a different part number to the GTi-6 ones- any idea why this is?

Also I am about to replace the p bushes on mine (cracked and tired after 75k)- would you recommend chaging the front bushes, or do these tend to last better than the p bushes?
Posted 8th Mar 2010 at 16:37
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dented_vts

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Post #10
306matt wrote:
Are you back on OE shocks from Peugeot?

What model are those?

I know how you feel, had a standard OE front lower engine mount put back on, no more vibrations.

Niiiice.

same here- just could not put up with the dash rattling and thinking i had jumped inside a diesel by accident when i started the engine!

Matt
Posted 8th Mar 2010 at 16:39
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dented_vts

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Post #11
iplay wrote:
I hav been messing around with the rear ride heights over the last 12 months ... lost count of how many times the rear has been adjusted but it has been educational if nothing else ... getting close now to optimum for my car and the small twisty B roads it travels.

Last night I just ruined the set-up in post#1 ... raised the rear by 2mm on the dummy shock (6mm on the rear). It was 330mm between shock bolts and is now 332mm and it has totally messed up the entire setup. I can't believe such a small adjustment can make such a difference in so many areas of the car.

330mm between shock bolts: was a bit lazy turning in around long corners and felt like i had a boot full with suspension feeling too firm on the rear. car could accelerate all day long and not feather the front tyres. minimal wear to the outside tyre walls. rear arch looked a bit pinch at 12 oclock to the tyre compared to 3 and 9 oclock points ... I wanted a uniform gap visually. Front and Rear jacking point heights gave a 8mm difference (rake?)

332mm between shock bolts: turn-in feels right (although i have been told that i should have adjusted toe in a bit? and not rear ride height?), suspension feel like both front and rear are compressing together. grip on car acceleration is not on outer limits when accelerating. breaking is much improved - i think the car must be sitting on a point in-front of the front wheel axis (not sure of the technical name for this). rear gap between tyre and arch is constant - looks good imho. the downside is that the rear of the car is now rolling through fast corners but takes slow corners very well (can feel the tyres taking a bigger bashing).

335mm between shock bolts ... feels like a hover craft or beach buggy suspension! turned in like a mini! enough said.

This leaves just one possible option of 331 between shock bolts using a dummy shock. Hopefully this will take out the rear end roll on fast corners ... not that i can take another night of -3 degrees!


I'm not sure its of relevance here- will have to have a study up on the suspension of these cars, but the tendency of a car to roll is not solely governed by the centre of gravity, but by the distance between the roll axis and the centre of gravity.

When you also consider the effects of roll steer etc suspension designs gets complicated very quickly! I have read a couple fo good books on suspension setup which may help you - pm me if your interested.
Posted 8th Mar 2010 at 16:43
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dented_vts

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Post #12
iplay wrote:
I hav been messing around with the rear ride heights over the last 12 months ... lost count of how many times the rear has been adjusted but it has been educational if nothing else ... getting close now to optimum for my car and the small twisty B roads it travels.

Last night I just ruined the set-up in post#1 ... raised the rear by 2mm on the dummy shock (6mm on the rear). It was 330mm between shock bolts and is now 332mm and it has totally messed up the entire setup. I can't believe such a small adjustment can make such a difference in so many areas of the car.

330mm between shock bolts: was a bit lazy turning in around long corners and felt like i had a boot full with suspension feeling too firm on the rear. car could accelerate all day long and not feather the front tyres. minimal wear to the outside tyre walls. rear arch looked a bit pinch at 12 oclock to the tyre compared to 3 and 9 oclock points ... I wanted a uniform gap visually. Front and Rear jacking point heights gave a 8mm difference (rake?)

332mm between shock bolts: turn-in feels right (although i have been told that i should have adjusted toe in a bit? and not rear ride height?), suspension feel like both front and rear are compressing together. grip on car acceleration is not on outer limits when accelerating. breaking is much improved - i think the car must be sitting on a point in-front of the front wheel axis (not sure of the technical name for this). rear gap between tyre and arch is constant - looks good imho. the downside is that the rear of the car is now rolling through fast corners but takes slow corners very well (can feel the tyres taking a bigger bashing).

335mm between shock bolts ... feels like a hover craft or beach buggy suspension! turned in like a mini! enough said.

This leaves just one possible option of 331 between shock bolts using a dummy shock. Hopefully this will take out the rear end roll on fast corners ... not that i can take another night of -3 degrees!


Last question i promise- were the B4 dampers noticeable harder or softer than the genuine Peugeot spec dampers?
Posted 8th Mar 2010 at 18:22
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al4x

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Post #13
the funny thing is Iplay from the factory the car got rave reviews for handling, yet everyone buys one with Knackered suspension changes it for something else and obviously it makes a huge difference. As you've shown also renewing the components also makes a huge difference
Posted 8th Mar 2010 at 18:25
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adam b

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Post #14
al4x wrote:
the funny thing is Iplay from the factory the car got rave reviews for handling, yet everyone buys one with Knackered suspension changes it for something else and obviously it makes a huge difference. As you've shown also renewing the components also makes a huge difference


Indeed and i'd imagine that some of the stuff put on isn't as good as the original anyway.

Xsara front shocks have a different spring platform height iirc to the 306, think they have different rates too. The springs are different rates front and rear to the 306 as well, along with the camber/toe of the rear beam. The ZX 16v is different again.

Depends which Xsara you are talking about however!

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Posted 8th Mar 2010 at 19:18
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dented_vts

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Post #15
adam b wrote:
al4x wrote:
the funny thing is Iplay from the factory the car got rave reviews for handling, yet everyone buys one with Knackered suspension changes it for something else and obviously it makes a huge difference. As you've shown also renewing the components also makes a huge difference


Indeed and i'd imagine that some of the stuff put on isn't as good as the original anyway.

Xsara front shocks have a different spring platform height iirc to the 306, think they have different rates too. The springs are different rates front and rear to the 306 as well, along with the camber/toe of the rear beam. The ZX 16v is different again.

Depends which Xsara you are talking about however!


Thanks I didn't know that many things would be different- car in question is an old 98 VTS

why did Citroen make it so different, for a start they made it ugly and now i learn they change the suspension as well. Sounds like genuine originals is going to be my only option.
Posted 8th Mar 2010 at 19:26
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adam b

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Post #16
A mark 1 then yes?
The springs are quite a bit shorter than the gti6 ones and stiffer too, you've got stiffer torsion bars too. Different steering rack as well - its a fair bit quicker. There will the differences in figures somewhere on here i'd have thought.

The bushes and beam mounts are worth doing too if you are changing the dampers. They make a huge difference. At least you know what you are getting with genuine originals!

I would try completely standard but with a thicker rear anti-roll bar if you are going to change anything.

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Posted 8th Mar 2010 at 19:37
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iplay

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Post #17
dented_vts wrote:
Last question i promise- were the B4 dampers noticeable harder or softer than the genuine Peugeot spec dampers?


B4's are about 10% stiffer. They take out front body roll on standard springs and go well with Eibach lowered springs.
Posted 8th Mar 2010 at 19:38
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dented_vts

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Post #18
adam b wrote:
A mark 1 then yes?
The springs are quite a bit shorter than the gti6 ones and stiffer too, you've got stiffer torsion bars too. Different steering rack as well - its a fair bit quicker. There will the differences in figures somewhere on here i'd have thought.

The bushes and beam mounts are worth doing too if you are changing the dampers. They make a huge difference. At least you know what you are getting with genuine originals!

I would try completely standard but with a thicker rear anti-roll bar if you are going to change anything.


i guess it is a mark 1- i don't know much about the originals- it looks like an "old" one so i guess so. The ride is very hard.

I believe the previous owner changed the rear beam mounts, and i have some new original p bushes and front wishbone bushes to go on. Will change the top mounts too if i change the dampers.

The only other damper i have considered is the KYB Ultra SR, but i have n idea how different the damping rates of these units are compared with the originals? They look a good price on buypartsby.com- do buyparts do trade discount?
Posted 8th Mar 2010 at 20:05
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dented_vts

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Post #19
adam b wrote:
A mark 1 then yes?
The springs are quite a bit shorter than the gti6 ones and stiffer too, you've got stiffer torsion bars too. Different steering rack as well - its a fair bit quicker. There will the differences in figures somewhere on here i'd have thought.

The bushes and beam mounts are worth doing too if you are changing the dampers. They make a huge difference. At least you know what you are getting with genuine originals!

I would try completely standard but with a thicker rear anti-roll bar if you are going to change anything.


just checked must be a mark one as its an early 98 r plate.

citroen rear dampers for my vin:
5206 N0

02
RR SHOCK-ABSORB

what are the part numbers for a gti-6 - i don thave a vin I can use to check>
Posted 8th Mar 2010 at 20:09
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phillipm

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Post #20
No, buyparts don't do any trade discounts No

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Posted 8th Mar 2010 at 20:10
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welshpug!

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Post #21
Mark 1 Xsara actually uses the same front dampers and springs as a 16v zx, same torsion bars and ARB too, possibly rear dampers.

They went totally the opposite with the rear toe in settings though, from zero on the zx to 5 on the xsara !

The front B4's are decent, but the rears aren't up to sport spec beams.

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Posted 8th Mar 2010 at 20:19
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dented_vts

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Post #22
welshpug! wrote:
Mark 1 Xsara actually uses the same front dampers and springs as a 16v zx, same torsion bars and ARB too, possibly rear dampers.

They went totally the opposite with the rear toe in settings though, from zero on the zx to 5 on the xsara !

The front B4's are decent, but the rears aren't up to sport spec beams.


yep just checked- same front and back as a zx 16v.

so the OEM GTi-6 dampers are different front and rear?
Posted 8th Mar 2010 at 20:24
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welshpug!

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Post #23
compared with what? a Citroen definitely.


Amusingly Citroen dampers say Peugeot on them Laugh my ass off

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Posted 8th Mar 2010 at 20:29
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dented_vts

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Post #24
welshpug! wrote:
compared with what? a Citroen definitely.


Amusingly Citroen dampers say Peugeot on them Laugh my ass off


The springs on these mark 1 xsara are very hard- the ride is terrible.

Have you any experience with KYB Ultra SR dampers? I have used Bilstein Sports (think now called B6's) and Koni adjustables (not as good as Bilstein IMHO- i had to send a lot of them back due to valve failures). I guess the KYB should be about as good as the Bilstein?
Posted 8th Mar 2010 at 20:35
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welshpug!

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Post #25
I would suggest that the dampers are unsuitable, it wont be the springs.

Never experienced KYB, found koni set on mid settings to work very well with standard springs, never tried eibachs on them.

Bilstein and Eibach seem to work well on the 306.

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Posted 8th Mar 2010 at 20:40
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