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Author Subject: Forged engine build advice
r*byb

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Location: Tamworth

Registered: 15 Sep 2007

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Post #1
I've decided to buy another engine and build it from scrath for my rallye, I'm doing a motorsport engineering course at Uni so be valuable too.

I want to do the lot but I'm after some advice,

Firstly what's the cost of say building a forged 2.1 or 2.2 with some lairy cams, lightened crank etc and what bhp output am I looking at?

And what about a forged engine and supercharging it I'm aware I can get 320 bhp on high boost but the cost could be massive and reliability hindered.

It will be built over 6 months so no rush just can't decide which route to take. Car is a sole track car.

Cheers

Anywhere I can look at part costs?

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Posted 29th Jan 2010 at 03:09
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allesclar

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Post #2
it will cost quite a few

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Posted 29th Jan 2010 at 03:11
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mxcrazy

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Registered: 22 Jun 2009

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Post #3
Depends what you can find, i got a set of 88mm high comp wossner pistons for
Posted 29th Jan 2010 at 03:19
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mxcrazy

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Post #4
I dont think theres much point in going high boost, 250bhp s/c or whatever you can squeeze N\A would be much more manageable on a track.
Posted 29th Jan 2010 at 03:21
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welshpug!

Capt Pedantic

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Post #5
get yourself on the 205gtidrviers forum, there's a couple of iron block xu builds varying from 2044cc to 2.3, 190 ish bhp to very high 200's (DJMini with his 280 bhp 2.2 MI16 built by Sandy brown is the highest output on there I believe)

DrSarty's build proves that a good combination of bottom end, a mild inlet stock exhaust and a pretty mcuh stock head can give very good results, circa 240 bhp with nearly 190 LBFT

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Posted 29th Jan 2010 at 03:23
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r*byb

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Post #6
Ok, why do you think I wouldn't be able to find those pistons again and just use stock conrods and a td crank like your self, is that a proven workin way to go.

If I was building a engine with forged pistons stronger crank, would it be worth going bigger valve head? Porting etc,

If I self fit a s/c kit how much am I looking at for the kit?

I was going to budget about 1.5k to 1.8k for engine build mins s/c kit

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Posted 29th Jan 2010 at 03:26
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r*byb

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Post #7
welshpug! wrote:
get yourself on the 205gtidrviers forum, there's a couple of iron block xu builds varying from 2044cc to 2.3, 190 ish bhp to very high 200's (DJMini with his 280 bhp 2.2 MI16 built by Sandy brown is the highest output on there I believe)

DrSarty's build proves that a good combination of bottom end, a mild inlet stock exhaust and a pretty mcuh stock head can give very good results, circa 240 bhp with nearly 190 LBFT


iron block is that what they are standard? Any details on what he's done as that sounds appealing if it's just cammed, mild mods on the head and a modded bottom end? Cheeers

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Posted 29th Jan 2010 at 03:30
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r*byb

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Post #8
Be interesting if you could copy over what he's done to the bottom end? Cheers

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Posted 29th Jan 2010 at 03:31
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mxcrazy

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Registered: 22 Jun 2009

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Post #9
r*byb wrote:
Ok, why do you think I wouldn't be able to find those pistons again and just use stock conrods and a td crank like your self, is that a proven workin way to go.

If I was building a engine with forged pistons stronger crank, would it be worth going bigger valve head? Porting etc,

If I self fit a s/c kit how much am I looking at for the kit?

I was going to budget about 1.5k to 1.8k for engine build mins s/c kit


I should have said, the pistons where custom made, 8 of them, the guy i bought them off built 1 engine and then never used the rest. They where on ebay for about 5 months, just listed on the wrong place.

You could maybe use S16 pistons and rods, in 87mm or 88mm if you can find them, they generally sit around 1mm lower in the block than GTI6 pistons as stock, but it may vary with aftermarket stuff.

No point in bigger valves and massive porting work, leave it stock, 3 angle cut the seats and run it.
Posted 29th Jan 2010 at 03:32
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mxcrazy

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Post #10
Sartys build is i think basically what im doing, 88mm x 88mm, 2139cc, throttle bodies, management, cams, stock head with the seats cut.
Posted 29th Jan 2010 at 03:34
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rallyeash

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Post #11
yes iron as standard.

djmini's engine isnt just mildly modded, its very highly strung.

sandy brown is currently building me a 2.1 iron block engine from scratch, will be costing probably 4k all in and will be running 240bhp roughly

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Posted 29th Jan 2010 at 03:36
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mxcrazy

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Post #12
rallyeash wrote:
yes iron as standard.

djmini's engine isnt just mildly modded, its very highly strung.

sandy brown is currently building me a 2.1 iron block engine from scratch, will be costing probably 4k all in and will be running 240bhp roughly


What cams and throttle body set up are you going to be running?
Posted 29th Jan 2010 at 03:43
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mattb-6

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Post #13
I have a steel crank from a 2.1td XU engine sitting in my garage which would build nicely into a well built N/A.

It's 92mm stroke and the main bearings are 2mm wider than on a standard '6. Ideally you would want to choose your pistons and then get a set of rods made to suit your choice of crank + piston taking into account deck height etc. This also gives you freedom with piston choice as your not limited by something with the same gudgeon pin size as standard.

Whilst custom rods sound expensive, most of the rods made for the 306s are very low volume anyway. I know of a couple of rod manufacturers who are usually happy enough to allow small dimensional changes from standard for little or no cost increase..

Drop me a PM if you want to know more about the crank, I think I've even got the correct rod drawings kicking around at work somewhere which may be of help...

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Posted 29th Jan 2010 at 03:44
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bobdylan_55

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Post #14
what uni you go to?

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Posted 29th Jan 2010 at 03:45
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mxcrazy

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Post #15
mattb-6 wrote:
I have a steel crank from a 2.1td XU engine sitting in my garage which would build nicely into a well built N/A.

It's 92mm stroke and the main bearings are 2mm wider than on a standard '6. Ideally you would want to choose your pistons and then get a set of rods made to suit your choice of crank + piston taking into account deck height etc. This also gives you freedom with piston choice as your not limited by something with the same gudgeon pin size as standard.

Whilst custom rods sound expensive, most of the rods made for the 306s are very low volume anyway. I know of a couple of rod manufacturers who are usually happy enough to allow small dimensional changes from standard for little or no cost increase..

Drop me a PM if you want to know more about the crank, I think I've even got the correct rod drawings kicking around at work somewhere which may be of help...


I was looking at this route too, 92 x 88 would be immense, but the rod where the PITA thing, yes as you say you can get rods made/modded reasonably cheaply but i couldnt be arsed with it in the end, so stuck with 88 x 88 for simplicity.
Posted 29th Jan 2010 at 03:50
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r*byb

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Post #16
Warwick/Coventry Uni

Cheers for the information, I want to be able to build it all my self.

mxcrazy, so your just having the bottom end re-bore to suit piston, standard conrods, 1.9tdi crank, Standard bearings?

Head standard, no porting of any sort ? and then cam's and bodies?

I like the idea of bodies but the kit is about 2.2k and you can get the s/c kit for that if i'm not mistaken?

Cheers

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Posted 29th Jan 2010 at 03:50
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rallyeash

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Post #17
mxcrazy wrote:
rallyeash wrote:
yes iron as standard.

djmini's engine isnt just mildly modded, its very highly strung.

sandy brown is currently building me a 2.1 iron block engine from scratch, will be costing probably 4k all in and will be running 240bhp roughly


What cams and throttle body set up are you going to be running?


catcams 109's i think they are.

jenvey 50mm tb's.

ive gone for the 50mm tb's with the scope to get better cams next year and aim for 270+ as bottom end is good for 300+

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Posted 29th Jan 2010 at 03:51
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miles

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Post #18
It's very well building engine's over 300bhp, but you need to remember about the Gearbox, Poor old thing's!!

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Posted 29th Jan 2010 at 03:52
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r*byb

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Post #19
Are these the sort you have MX, i see these only go to 87mm doesn't mention about what conrod's i'd need

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Posted 29th Jan 2010 at 03:52
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mxcrazy

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Post #20
r*byb wrote:
Are these the sort you have MX, i see these only go to 87mm doesn't mention about what conrod's i'd need


As i say my pistons where custom made by Wossner, GTi6 fitment, to use stock dimension rods and TD 1.9 crank. Finding them is the only reason im doing the build, took all the guesswork/ work out of it. LOL

Pistons wise you'll have to find out what you can get and in what sizes, 87 or 88mm. Then see what the pin to deck height is, what crank you are running, then work out rod dimensions to suit. i got lucky with my find.

Having my bottom end bored to 88mm, the pistons are actually 87.xx to give the correct bore to piston clearance.

Ill use a stock td crank, re-ground if needed for the bearings, stock rods, the 88mm pistons.

The head at most will get a light touch up with the flap wheels, manifolds matched to ports and a 3 angle seat cut thats it.

Im looking at using cat cams 4903108's. Though my piston cut outs are huge and i could run nigh on any cam if i went solid lifter and modified head for lobe clearance.
Posted 29th Jan 2010 at 04:00
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pete_rallye

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Post #21
I am building a full steel sc engine at the moment, most bits have come from my knackered btcc engine though. I priced it up a while ago to build a high spec NA engine and it was well over

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Posted 29th Jan 2010 at 03:59
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welshpug!

Capt Pedantic

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Registered: 27 Mar 2007

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Post #22
r*byb wrote:
Be interesting if you could copy over what he's done to the bottom end? Cheers


not that easy, there's tons and tons of information over there, best to have a browse yourself really, and as Miles just pointed out, get a decent box too!

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need a part number? get on here - http://public.servicebox.peugeot.com

Bring on the Trumpets.

Posted 29th Jan 2010 at 03:58
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mxcrazy

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Registered: 22 Jun 2009

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Post #23
pete_rallye wrote:
I am building a full steel sc engine at the moment, most bits have come from my knackered btcc engine though. I priced it up a while ago to build a high spec NA engine and it was well over
Posted 29th Jan 2010 at 04:04
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pete_rallye

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Post #24
What the hell is peppy? Never heard that before? I may have just been unlucky with my 87mm blocks, would tie in with the rest of my engine luck.

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Oulton Park in a BTCC 306 vid 1
Oulton Park in a BTCC 306 vid 2
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Posted 29th Jan 2010 at 04:07
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mxcrazy

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Registered: 22 Jun 2009

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Post #25
Umm, might be a southern thing peppy, thinking back to my motocross days, things like the 450cc honda 4 strokes, throttle response was so good with them, plus 13k revs, light weight moving parts, light flywheels etc. Putting a flywheel weight on them tamed them down a bit, same power and torque, just easier to use.

I suppose its a more road orientated thing, heavy flywheels for ease of use, i may well try a light flywheel when i get the engine built up, see what its like though.
Posted 29th Jan 2010 at 04:11
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