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Author Subject: How much difference have I made?
rory77

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Location: carshalton

Registered: 26 Mar 2016

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Post #1
So, the last car my track car was out was at Brands Hatch about a month ago. I'm going back there in a couple of weeks having done the following.

Standard brakes with Ferodo DS2500 replaced with AP Racing 4 Pots, Quaife Fitted, Ph1 Rack, Rich W Flywheel, lightemed by 52kgs, battery relocated, solid rear mounts, couple of other bits but nothing significant.

With standard power, I was lapping the Indy Circuit pretty much bang on 60 seconds. Any chance of 57s? The overall end target is 55s. Because I'm too lazy to do it myself, I'm going to send it to Pug1off for their 'stage 2' when I get the time to take it up there so will be interesting to see what that does.

If anyone is interested, will report back in a couple of weeks.

Posted 21st Oct 2016 at 08:25
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3rd time lucky

Seasoned Pro

Location: maidstone

Registered: 23 Apr 2007

Posts: 1,879

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Post #2
Very interested in your results. What day/time are you going?

________________________________________

DIABLO GTI-6 - Legend - NILE GTI-6 - Sold
CHERRY GTI-6 P1 SUPERCHARGED - Broken up
BLACK RALLYE - Sold
205 Dturbo xud9 work horse - Dead
CHERRY RALLYE - new toy
Posted 21st Oct 2016 at 08:32
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superchargedblack1997gti6

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Location: guildford

Registered: 15 Aug 2009

Posts: 2,376

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Post #3
I wouldn't worry about the stage 2 I'd get yourself some decent suspension on there and have it properly set up.? The stage 2 is very expensive for what amounts to just a set of cams and remap. Save for a little while longer and get some bodies on there?
Any pics of you're car sounds good

________________________________________

Super high boost Completed, destroyer of gearboxes and 160mph club
Posted 21st Oct 2016 at 09:12
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sergioiacobucci

Senior User

Location: High Wycombe

Registered: 27 Nov 2007

Posts: 526

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Post #4
I'm not a massive expert however i would imagine you could shave off those seconds with the diff and brakes alone.

________________________________________

Phase 1 silver track car
335i daily
Posted 21st Oct 2016 at 10:17
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armzsc6

Seasoned Pro

Location: Crowborough

Registered: 22 Mar 2008

Posts: 3,445

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Post #5
Should get a good couple of seconds will be faster in the corners and get the power down earlier also later on the brakes.

When are you doing brands?

________________________________________

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Posted 21st Oct 2016 at 10:25
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welshpug!

Capt Pedantic

Location: Bigend, Wales.

Registered: 27 Mar 2007

Posts: 25,838

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Post #6
bigger balls you need.

stock hatch record for the indy circuit is a 57, that's in standard engined stuff like saxo vtr's

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Bring on the Trumpets.

Posted 21st Oct 2016 at 10:32
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Chr1sch

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Location: Worcester

Registered: 02 Aug 2014

Posts: 1,025

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Post #7
Brakes will make the biggest difference by miles and miles, along with the diff - that said, get them worn in well and really a decent set of sticky tyres would be great.

I'd expect you to be considerably faster with all that lot Smile (rack and flywheel (i have both) and they absolutely make for a better track car but not going to make you that much quicker)

Posted 21st Oct 2016 at 10:59
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superchargedblack1997gti6

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Location: guildford

Registered: 15 Aug 2009

Posts: 2,376

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Post #8
57 second lap I'd say you be round that with the mods you have bear in mind that's the same as a lotus Elise . Getting another 2 seconds off will be hard work. Good luck

________________________________________

Super high boost Completed, destroyer of gearboxes and 160mph club
Posted 21st Oct 2016 at 11:16
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Day666

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Location: Bristol

Registered: 20 Apr 2013

Posts: 5,214

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Post #9
Like others on here I've gone through stages & monitored each thing I've done & how much it's improved my 6 on the journey ?
My Full race engine for track days was last ....crazy difference but you don't want to go there
It depends also if you want to use it on the road as well ?
Mines hardly used on the road & is horrible to drive on the road now ....mental on the track though


0.Best free power get it Lighter Thumbs up
1. Brake pads & fluid First ...I was finding DS2500 were overheating myself ?
2. Discs ...poss bit bigger
3. Tyres
4. Plate diff
5.suspension front & rear & TBs
6.satchel shift
7. Full cage
8.Throttle bodies on stand engine with remap.
9.. Engine upgrade cams etc
10. Bucket Seats much lighter
11. Rich W lower arm Bearings

Posted 21st Oct 2016 at 16:12
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328isport

Newbie

Location: Brantham

Registered: 11 Oct 2016

Posts: 22

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Post #10
A very open ended question without knowing how good you are/how close you were to the limits of your last set up! A capable driver under race conditions may find some reasonable improvement, but on a track like brands indy (not particularly hard on brakes) and in trackday conditions I'd wager that while your brakes will feel better you won't necessarily be any quicker, the diff will certainly help you out of druids and graham hill, and probably clearways, however conditions between sept and nov may well negate any advantage.

This is the issue with timing yourself on trackdays, its just pointless as there are so many variables, you may find you can't improve on your previous time yet it may be that you actually drove better! However all you'll be is dissapointed your latest upgrades didn't work.

If you've got decent data logging equipment so you can actually make sense of it all then go for it, otherwise sack it off, far more fun things to work on than overall lap times on a trackday! All in my opinion of course!

Posted 21st Oct 2016 at 11:54
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Chr1sch

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Location: Worcester

Registered: 02 Aug 2014

Posts: 1,025

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Post #11

I've found the same with DS2500's now that I've switched to DS3000's which perform much better on longer stints on track. That said the 2500's were excellent for the first 2 td's I did

Day666 wrote:
Like others on here I've gone through stages & monitored each thing I've done & how much it's improved my 6 on the journey ?
My Full race engine for track days was last ....crazy difference but you don't want to go there
It depends also if you want to use it on the road as well ?
Mines hardly used on the road & is horrible to drive on the road now ....mental on the track though


0.Best free power get it Lighter Thumbs up
1. Brake pads & fluid First ...I was finding DS2500 were overheating myself ?
2. Discs ...poss bit bigger
3. Tyres
4. Plate diff
5.suspension front & rear & TBs
6.satchel shift
7. Full cage
8.Throttle bodies on stand engine with remap.
9.. Engine upgrade cams etc
10. Bucket Seats much lighter

Posted 21st Oct 2016 at 12:50
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fatlapit

Seasoned Pro

Location: STOCKSFIELD

Registered: 02 Nov 2010

Posts: 3,040

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Post #12
try the 1.11 or unos great from cold and get better as the day goes on

________________________________________


Posted 21st Oct 2016 at 12:53
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aaron6

Seasoned Pro

Location: On the sofa in maidstone

Registered: 16 May 2006

Posts: 5,840

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Post #13
328isport

Brands is not hard on the brakes?
I can guarantee it is. I was using the brakes there so hard I f**ked them. Heavy braking was how I bullied the bigger cars out the way. I came off track and the discs were blue. LOL
I know that with my now much bigger brakes I could leave braking even later and they'd take it for longer so a significant gain at brands could be had just with the brakes.

Did the op upgrade the wishbones bushes as I had weaving problems under heavy heavy braking initially. The partner p bushes have sorted that put though.

________________________________________

See the sheer power and might of the lesser known burrowing owl.



Posted 21st Oct 2016 at 15:22
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Day666

Seasoned Pro

Location: Bristol

Registered: 20 Apr 2013

Posts: 5,214

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Post #14
328i sport
I should of mentioned ....I've been Racing Minis at Combe for many years & all my upgrades have been tested & done at Combe on dry days mostly.... where I get help with 15-20 min free slots on days testing Thumbs up
I've done more trackdays there than I care to count & last year I visited it 6 out of the 12months ....

All my ideals mostly have been taken off of cars on here that work
....Russian Guy
Jord
PeteRallye
To name a few
Anybody that's seen my cars Evolution over then 3 years before even getting my race Engine would tell you how things have improved & this year at Prescott hill climb with the same Supersofts Kumos on as last year will tell you how well the car was performing Thumbs up
At Combe I'm doing 1.16s even a couple of 1.15s and I've not got the total hang of the engine power YET ...
Believe me I'm quite switched on about Tyres & Y tyre pressures let alone good days & bad days driving ...I have a full DTA data log system & laptimer fitted & ive got Wil Declaudio helping me out on site 90% of the time ...
I can only say what I feel & see with my own eyes & Brakes & braking late have always been my no two important thing ...apart from weight saving
Tyres may be higher & tyre pressures

PS ...I had a BMW C2 2.8 Alpina I raced in 1986 for 6minths may interest you & Clayton cars looked after it for me cost me a small fortune mechanically Whistle

Also Rory your going about it the right way m8 ...forget messing about internally with your engine yet m8 ...get it stopping & handling First as I was told & it brilliant advice ...keep the updates coming m8 & get some pictures Thumbs up
Posted 21st Oct 2016 at 16:50
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rory77

Junior User

Location: carshalton

Registered: 26 Mar 2016

Posts: 81

Status: Offline
Post #15
welshpug! wrote:
bigger balls you need.

stock hatch record for the indy circuit is a 57, that's in standard engined stuff like saxo vtr's


Guess we can't all be driving Gods.
Posted 21st Oct 2016 at 18:18
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rory77

Junior User

Location: carshalton

Registered: 26 Mar 2016

Posts: 81

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Post #16
Interesting. I guess like was said it's a very open ended question. We will see.

It's a blue ph3 by the way and I'm doing Brands on Monday 7th November, Bedford on 2nd December.
Posted 21st Oct 2016 at 18:38
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welshpug!

Capt Pedantic

Location: Bigend, Wales.

Registered: 27 Mar 2007

Posts: 25,838

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Post #17
rory77 wrote:
welshpug! wrote:
bigger balls you need.

stock hatch record for the indy circuit is a 57, that's in standard engined stuff like saxo vtr's


Guess we can't all be driving Gods.


indeed not lol.

those stockhatch cars can put a lot of silly soec track cars to shame with a very basic setup:

proper full weld in cage triangulating to strut tops and rear suspension pickup points.

basic gaz coilovers

safety gear.

control tyre, used to be ao48, not sure now.

lsd.

standard brakes, uprated pads.

no camber mods allowed, no engine tuning bar aftermarket ecu and filter.

________________________________________

need a part number? get on here - http://public.servicebox.peugeot.com

Bring on the Trumpets.

Posted 21st Oct 2016 at 19:40
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3rd time lucky

Seasoned Pro

Location: maidstone

Registered: 23 Apr 2007

Posts: 1,879

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Post #18
rory77 wrote:
It's a blue ph3 by the way


Ahh, there's your problem.

________________________________________

DIABLO GTI-6 - Legend - NILE GTI-6 - Sold
CHERRY GTI-6 P1 SUPERCHARGED - Broken up
BLACK RALLYE - Sold
205 Dturbo xud9 work horse - Dead
CHERRY RALLYE - new toy
Posted 21st Oct 2016 at 21:10
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aaron6

Seasoned Pro

Location: On the sofa in maidstone

Registered: 16 May 2006

Posts: 5,840

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Post #19
Don't be a fool Jan... China ftmfw!!

________________________________________

See the sheer power and might of the lesser known burrowing owl.



Posted 21st Oct 2016 at 21:44
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pete_rallye

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Location: Yorkshire

Registered: 12 Dec 2002

Posts: 5,253

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Post #20
Brands isn't much of a power circuit so you should see a decent improvement. Brakes will definitely be an improvement but Brands isn't particularly heavy on the brakes either so I wouldn't expect too much.

Diff and weight removal will be the main contributors, but as Welshpug said, there's improvement in your laptimes anyway. I seriously would put your 'stage 2' on hold, do more trackdays and learn what your car is capable of, it'll surprise you how fast a 306 can go.

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Oulton Park in a BTCC 306 vid 2
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Posted 21st Oct 2016 at 22:12
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Twangy

Senior User

Location: heswall

Registered: 27 Jun 2014

Posts: 623

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Post #21
welshpug! wrote:
bigger balls you need.

stock hatch record for the indy circuit is a 57, that's in standard engined stuff like saxo vtr's[/quote

stock hatch are a damn sight lighter than standard car as totally stripped , so should be faster , have help build several stock hatch rallycross cars that have won championships so hopefully got a good idea,

________________________________________

wayne mcardle
Posted 21st Oct 2016 at 22:51
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Twangy

Senior User

Location: heswall

Registered: 27 Jun 2014

Posts: 623

Status: Offline
Post #22
rory77 wrote:
welshpug! wrote:
bigger balls you need.

stock hatch record for the indy circuit is a 57, that's in standard engined stuff like saxo vtr's


Guess we can't all be driving Gods.


correct mate , bet half of these couldn t drive a soapy stick up a dogs arse

________________________________________

wayne mcardle
Posted 21st Oct 2016 at 22:58
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Twangy

Senior User

Location: heswall

Registered: 27 Jun 2014

Posts: 623

Status: Offline
Post #23
welshpug! wrote:
rory77 wrote:
welshpug! wrote:
bigger balls you need.

stock hatch record for the indy circuit is a 57, that's in standard engined stuff like saxo vtr's


Guess we can't all be driving Gods.


indeed not lol.

those stockhatch cars can put a lot of silly soec track cars to shame with a very basic setup:

proper full weld in cage triangulating to strut tops and rear suspension pickup points.

basic gaz coilovers

safety gear

do you really think these are all built to regulations , even grp n rally cars have cheats ,they are by no means standard setup
mei from day one theres allways been ways of cheating or bending rules , do you honestly think gp n , was standard setup???

________________________________________

wayne mcardle
Posted 21st Oct 2016 at 23:22
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Twangy

Senior User

Location: heswall

Registered: 27 Jun 2014

Posts: 623

Status: Offline
Post #24
rory77 wrote:
So, the last car my track car was out was at Brands Hatch about a month ago. I'm going back there in a couple of weeks having done the following.

Standard brakes with Ferodo DS2500 replaced with AP Racing 4 Pots, Quaife Fitted, Ph1 Rack, Rich W Flywheel, lightemed by 52kgs, battery relocated, solid rear mounts, couple of other bits but nothing significant.

With standard power, I was lapping the Indy Circuit pretty much bang on 60 seconds. Any chance of 57s? The overall end target is 55s. Because I'm too lazy to do it myself, I'm going to send it to Pug1off for their 'stage 2' when I get the time to take it up there so will be interesting to see what that does.

If anyone is interested, will report back in a couple of weeks.



you need to spend your money on decent tyres next , mega soft on rears as only getting dragged around ,

________________________________________

wayne mcardle
Posted 21st Oct 2016 at 23:33
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328isport

Newbie

Location: Brantham

Registered: 11 Oct 2016

Posts: 22

Status: Offline
Post #25
aaron6 wrote:
328isport

Brands is not hard on the brakes?
I can guarantee it is. I was using the brakes there so hard I f**ked them. Heavy braking was how I bullied the bigger cars out the way. I came off track and the discs were blue. LOL
I know that with my now much bigger brakes I could leave braking even later and they'd take it for longer so a significant gain at brands could be had just with the brakes.

Did the op upgrade the wishbones bushes as I had weaving problems under heavy heavy braking initially. The partner p bushes have sorted that put though.


It really isn't in comparison to other circuits Aaron, the only thing you can guarantee me is that you're hard on the brakes ;-) Now whether the fact your working your brakes so hard shows your nailing your braking points, or that actually your using them more than you should be, I don't know! Obviously you'll say the former because lets face it we all like to think we're a bit handy on a circuit, but as per the OP's question without seeing lap data so we can see whats happening you can't quantify it.
Posted 21st Oct 2016 at 23:57
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