Any Intelligent Diesel Experts here? - General Forum - Peugeot 306 GTi-6 & Rallye Owners Club

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Subject: Any Intelligent Diesel Experts here?

lurch86

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Location: Herne Bay, Kent

Registered: 22 Nov 2010

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Post #1

Hello, Is there anyone that could help me at all? Its not 306 related its my partners Seat Leon Fr TDI Mk2. Its being a right pain and I, or anyone else for that matter seems to know what the problem could be? It started off fine for 6 months, then it started bringing up the dpf filter light, so I tried the 'driving at 70mph for a few miles to clean it etc' but no luck. Then it starts to put itself in limp mode, so I know the dpf is too blocked and its not going to clear itself.

So I take the car to my mum's boyfriends garage where he decided it would be a good idea to drill a hole in the bottom and hammer a rod through to temporarily unblock it, then weld up the hole. Anyway the lights go out and everything seems fine. Next morning it was a little hard to start and for the next week or so it got harder and harder to start until it was really hard to start and lacking in power. So I thought the dpf must still be blocked. So I took the car to my nephew's garage and we took the dpf filter off the car and cut it open, gutted it and re-welded it (the idea was to do that and get a remap anyway). So I take the car off for a drive and it seems fine. Until the next morning when it was cold it was hard to start. And when I say hard to start I mean, it takes about a minute of turning over and kicking, then it will start and miss on 2 cylinders, then shortly it will miss on 1, then after about 5 minutes of driving it will run on all 4, but with a big lack of power. And it has been like that for a while now until now, it wont start at all. It just turns over until the battery is flat. I'm sure it will tow start, but theres not much point in doing that.

I have a decent Vagcom diagnostics lead and that comes up with injector errors, but the values are off the scale? I don't think it can be all 4 injectors gone just like that.

I have changed the fuel filter, which was black, but now after running a few hundred miles the new one is still clean. I have also changed the injector wiring loom as that's a common fault. The injectors were changed in 2011 for the recall they had.

After researching the internet there was only 1 case I've read that the symptom's have come close to was the cambelt timing was out slightly? Which is what I am going to check next weekend when I can change the cambelt at the same time. I think it maybe possible that with all the extra back pressure from the blocked dpf it could of caused the cambelt to slip a cog or stretch? (It is due for a cambelt now.)
Or my other thoughts was the tandem fuel pump faulty?

Sorry for the long essay but that's all the information needed? Can anyway help at all, or does anyone know a decent diesel expert around the kent area?
I tried the Seat Leon forum but didn't get any response, which seems to be a common thing on there...

Cheers,
Adrian

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Posted 9th May 2015 at 15:04

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anth

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Post #2

Have you asked AMD, they are near lakeside, they do a lot of VAG's. When i had my 225 R that was the place people used to go living in the south east.

Try a VW forum, they are usually far busier.

Posted 13th May 2015 at 07:50

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armzsc6

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Post #3

2.0 170PD engine? What fault codes does it bring up? When you say the injector values are off the scale do you mean the idle stabilisation figures? They should only be as high as +3.0 to -3.0 any further out and they are rubber ducked....

If it is the PD engine then it won't run at all with the belt 1 tooth out have found this out on a 1.9PD engine before. Belt won't jump on these anyway have you seen how thick it is and how tight lol.

Without seeing the lie data and any fault codes I can't really help a lot more....

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Posted 13th May 2015 at 08:01

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heliosphan

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Post #4

That hole drilled into the DPF and a wiggle around was a bodge and the later gutting of the DPF is likely to fall foul of new MOT laws. At the point the DPF was first clogged and a passive regen didn't work, you should have taken it to a dealer/someone with the correct equipment to can carry out a forced regen. The car is likely to monitor the status of the DPF and if you have not remapped it yet, the starting and running troubles may be related to the odd and spurious signals from the gutted DPF.

Aside from this, you have a direct injection Diesel engine that is difficult to start: you need to carry out a leak off test. It's hilariously cheap and easy and will provide you with a good idea of the health of your injectors.

Posted 13th May 2015 at 09:52

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armzsc6

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Post #5

tompaltridge wrote:

First part I aggree with entirely second part if it's a PD engine the injectors are in the rocker cover and the leak off from them is internal in the head so can't do that you use the idle stabilisation figures on vag com to tell if their f**ked or not.

I it's a later (2008 on) 2.0 CR engine then leaking will show if any are out of spec.

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Posted 13th May 2015 at 14:01

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lurch86

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Post #6

armzs16 wrote:

This was after a short run it usually comes up with a few more of the same faults on most or all of the injectors...

Address 01: Engine Labels: 03G-906-018-BMN.clb
Control Module Part Number: 03G 906 018 DT HW: 03G 906 018 DT
Component and/or Version: R4 2.0l PPD1.2 G 1260
Software Coding: 0050072
Work Shop Code: WSC xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
VCID: xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
4 Faults Found:

004705 - PD Unit Injector: Cylinder 1 (N240)
P1261 - 006 - Regulation Range Exceeded - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00100001
Fault Priority: 0
Fault Frequency: 1
Reset counter: 40
Mileage: 123429 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2000.00.00
Time: 17:01:12

Freeze Frame:
RPM: 2496 /min
Torque: 0.0 Nm
Speed: 60.0 km/h
85.41 %
Text: 5.125 uF
Text: 12.00 mJ
Text: 12 mJ
Raw, Form. N/A: 000 000 000

004711 - PD Unit Injector: Cylinder 3 (N242)
P1267 - 006 - Regulation Range Exceeded - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00100001
Fault Priority: 0
Fault Frequency: 2
Reset counter: 40
Mileage: 123429 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2000.00.00
Time: 17:01:12

Freeze Frame:
RPM: 2496 /min
Torque: 0.0 Nm
Speed: 48.0 km/h
75.27 %
Text: 5.625 uF
Text: 14.00 mJ
Text: 12 mJ
Raw, Form. N/A: 000 000 000

004710 - PD Unit Injector: Cylinder 3 (N242)
P1266 - 006 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00100001
Fault Priority: 0
Fault Frequency: 1
Reset counter: 40
Mileage: 123430 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2000.00.00
Time: 17:01:54

Freeze Frame:
RPM: 2240 /min
Torque: 104.0 Nm
Speed: 33.0 km/h
77.22 %
Text: 5.375 uF
Time: 0.00 ms
Text: 0.00 mJ

004720 - PD Unit Injector: Cylinder 4 (N243)
P1270 - 006 - Regulation Range Exceeded - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00100001
Fault Priority: 0
Fault Frequency: 1
Reset counter: 40
Mileage: 123432 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2000.00.00
Time: 17:08:38

Freeze Frame:
RPM: 3136 /min
Torque: 312.0 Nm
Speed: 74.0 km/h
79.17 %
Text: 5.375 uF
Text: 12.50 mJ
Text: 12 mJ
Raw, Form. N/A: 000 000 000

I can't put the log info on here as its a excel document, but I could email it? The only reason I mentioned the belt slipping a tooth, or stretching is because that was the only other problem I could find searching the internet that had similar symptoms as mine and they said after a cambelt change it fixed the problem. To me its a lack of fuel getting to the injectors some how. But why would it do that when the dpf was blocked? Extra back pressure caused it maybe?

17675/P1267/004711 - PD Unit Injector: Cylinder 3 (N242): Regulation Range Exceeded

Possible Symptoms
## Drivability Issues
## Reduced Power
## Rough Engine Running
## Increased Emission Values

Possible Causes
## Regulation times exceeded
## Contact resistance

Possible Solutions
## Check Injectors and Injector Wiring ## See Meas. Value Block 018
## Check Resistance of Injectors/Wiring

And

17673/P1266/004710 - PD Unit Injector: Cylinder 3 (N242): Implausible Signal

Possible Symptoms
## Malfunction Indicator Light (MIL) ON
## Reduced Power Output

Possible Causes
## Wiring and/or Connector(s) from/to PD Unit Injector: Cylinder 3 (N242) faulty
## PD Unit Injector: Cylinder 3 (N242) faulty
## Camshaft worn out / faulty

Possible Solutions
## Check Wiring and/or Connector(s) from/to PD Unit Injector: Cylinder 3 (N242)
## Check/Replace PD Unit Injector: Cylinder 3 (N242)
## Check Camshaft for Signs of wear

Special Notes
## Injectors on TDI PD/PPD Engines are not designed to run Waste Vegetable Oil (WVO) or Straight Vegetable Oil (SVO) as well as anything above 5% Biodiesel Content. Running these Types of Fuels can Damage the Injectors. Please Refer to the Owners Manual and/or Factory Repair Manual for a list of appropriate Fuel Types.

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Posted 13th May 2015 at 19:24

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lurch86

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Post #7

tompaltridge wrote:

I know the drilling of the dpf was a bodge and I didn't want him to do it, but it was too late. The MOT is only a visual check to see if it has a dpf, so the way it was gutted you couldn't see it. But it will need a remap before it brings up a dpf error, but that takes a while before it brings up and errors.

I did force regen of the dpf twice but unfortunately it was too blocked and wasn't clearing itself. The only option I had was to replace the dpf or gut it and remap it, which is what I wanted to do anyway...

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Posted 13th May 2015 at 19:18

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lurch86

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Post #8

anth wrote:

Have you asked AMD, they are near lakeside, they do a lot of VAG's. When i had my 225 R that was the place people used to go living in the south east.

Try a VW forum, they are usually far busier.

I may get on the phone to them if I still can't fix it. Thanks

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Posted 13th May 2015 at 19:19

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Cjwatson27

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Post #9

You sure it's not a air leak on the fuel system. Did you or can you replace the seals when you changed the fuel filter? My connect messed around for ages other this. I know very little about diesels so just a stab in the dark

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Posted 13th May 2015 at 19:25

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heliosphan

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Post #10

I see you do have PD injectors and with that, I'm out. Armz, over to you.

Posted 13th May 2015 at 20:21

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armzsc6

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Post #11

Check the belt timing to put your mind at rest then but I've never known one of these to jump their much to tight and my 1.9 didn't run at all with the timing 1 tooth out when I got it. You will need the tool to lock the crank sprocket and two pins for the camshafts to check it though and when the cams are pinned it's very difficult to get the crank tool to go in ( or vice versa) due to the belt tension.
I'm more knowledgable on the 1.9PD lumps than the 2.016v having rebuilt my own and worked on quite a lot lately.

Lol there's loads of info online particularly if you google the engine code which is on the top of the cambelt cover. When I worked for Mitsubishi they used the 140bhp "BSY" engine and "BWC" as well in a few of their cars so I've done a few years of fixing / maintaining those but never had injector problems with them other than the occasional injector loom. Mostly turbos and N75/ vac control boxes.

Had a few tandem pump recalls on them where the seals fail inside the pump which would cause among other things lack of fuel pressure going into the head to the injectors. The 1.9's suffer camshaft wear big time. Not so sure about the 2.0 but if you remove the rocker cover and inspect the camshaft lobes that work the injectors you'll be looking for obviously warn lobes particularly if they have sharp edges to the sides of the lobe tips.

I had a few that weren't affected by the recalls that the tandem pump gasket had failed and diesel was leaking down the side of the head onto the top of the gearbox.

Also check the oil level hasn't gone up at all. The injector seals fail, and diesel leaks past them and fills up the engine oil. Could also cause lack of diesel pressure to the injectors. The injectors can also wear into the head (which is what happened t my Leon) causing the same issues.

From some of the fault codes I'd be interested to look at the live data on the idle stabilisation figures to see how much it's compensating.

A few things to check there but otherwise either you need to take it to a diesel specialist ( I know one that are the nuts) or at least take the injectors out to be tested. Their not cheap if their buggered though.... But it's very rare that they are.

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Posted 14th May 2015 at 21:38

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lurch86

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Post #12

Thanks for that mate, I've also got the 1.9 and recently had the one of the tappets wear through due to the cam wearing and scoring it, so changed the lot. 180k miles, 185bhp and still going strong! I heard about the injector wiring loom faults on the new one so already changed that first but that wasn't it unfortunately. It's the bmn engine. It's due a cambelt anyway so I will do it at the weekend just to rule that out, but like you said, it's very doubtful to be the problem. If that doesn't fix it if might change the tandem pump as you can get them for around £40. If that doesn't fix it I will ask you for the diesel expert that you know of.
I have got like data reading on a log, if you like I can send to you?
Cheers again

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Posted 14th May 2015 at 21:54

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armzsc6

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Post #13

Most people dot realise the reason for the cam / tappet wear though. Either someone's fitted heap ones made of cheese an a cheese camshaft or the oil pickup can become blocked in the sump or the injector seals allow a very fine mist of diesel past which builds up on the cam lobes causing them to wear into the buckets as diesel doesn't reduce friction like oil.

My Leon has the ARL 150 Bhp lump currently mapped to a proven 190bhp 301.5ftlb torque. It can go further on the standard turbo but I'm happy with how it goes for a daily car and don't want it eating clutches lol alreDy had to put one in it.

Regular oil changes keep the injector seals from drying out it seems. I bought mine cheap with no history and the oil was disgusting. It's now cleaner than most petrols but after I'd had the car 6 months it started white smoking on idle badly which is overfueling but injector idle stabilisation etc was all spot on. Turns out the injectors had warn Into the head and diesel was running down the side of them and dripping into the cylinders on tickover.... New head time....

I rarely ever use anything other than my iphone for internet so couldn't really look at an excell log.

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Posted 14th May 2015 at 22:53

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lurch86

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Post #14

Timing as expected was perfect, but at least it was a job that needed to be done out of the way! I also took the rocker cover off to have a better look at the cams for any obvious wear, to which there wasn't any. Next job will be tandem pump to rule that out. If that doesn't solve the problem I give up! Lol. I'll have to get in touch with you to grab the diesel experts phone number you mentioned!

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Posted 18th May 2015 at 01:15

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lurch86

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Post #15

Hello, after months of being off the road, I've finally got round to taking the injectors out and came across this while doing so....

Injector 1 & 3 are higher, you can lift the spring off. Where they are supposed to be clipped down. So at last I'm pretty confident that is the problem!

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Posted 26th Sep 2015 at 16:22

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t3ora

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Post #16

That looks like the injectors have not been set right when it had the recall done (they need setting like you would do with tappets) and have stuck down over time or you am just unlucky and they have just died
They will make it had to start and misfire because they am sticking open and just putting fuel in

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Posted 26th Sep 2015 at 21:18

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mechanical_repairs

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Post #17

How did you get on with this?

Carl

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Posted 16th Oct 2015 at 20:03

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lurch86

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Post #18

Well basically the clip type thing that keeps the springs compressed slightly was broken on the 2 injectors, which has I thought must of been the problem. But after more research I've come to the conclusion that them being broke wouldn't make any difference because once the rocker arms are on the springs are kept more compressed than the clips hold.
So my next step was to get the 2 broken injectors fixed and tested and have the other 2 tested. Not possible, after numerous phone calls etc to injector specialist I pretty much found that no one can test Siemens injectors or refurb them.
So I've got no other choice than to buy 4 injectors, but at 300 each that's not cheap. So I'm looking either for a whole car from copart so I've got lots of spares or second hand injectors.

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Posted 16th Oct 2015 at 20:21

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mechanical_repairs

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Post #19

lurch86 wrote:

There's a place in Birmingham that can test and repair these, I will see if I can Find the number.

Carl

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Posted 18th Oct 2015 at 18:47

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t3ora

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Post #20

Silly thing but have you phoned the main dealer
I am sure they am half price
Because they were so common they reduced in price
If not pm me the reg and I get a price for you

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Posted 18th Oct 2015 at 23:02

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armzsc6

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Post #21

I know the bosch ones can be tested but Siemens I don't.....

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Posted 19th Oct 2015 at 13:32

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lurch86

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Post #22

Update: I found a set of injectors on eBay from Amsterdam at a good price so took the chance on them and bagged all 4 for £235 delivered! Fitted them yesterday and found the correct procedure to set them up from my cousins garage, tried starting it after putting everything back together and after about min's of cranking it fired up. Took it for a blast up the road and it took off like a rocket, never been so fast. So thank f### for that! Over 6 months off the road (mainly due to laziness) its running and running well. I can only guess that it was only 1 injector faulty, but I wasn't messing about trying 1 at a time, would end up causing more problems by keep taking the injectors in and out. Some how the extra back pressure from the cat being blocked must have caused a faulty injector some how?

Funny thing, Friday I went out in my dads VW Bora 1.9 tdi drove it to the end of the road, it cuts out and won't restart! Not much luck with VAGS at the moment! lol

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Posted 8th Nov 2015 at 19:45

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armzsc6

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Post #23

A mates passat 2.0 PD died on a motorway run the other day... would restart after a while but only run on 2 cylinders so he got it recovered to a mates garage. After inspection 2 injectors have disintegrated... and somethings punched a hole in the inlet manifold Shock

so either something let go or it sucked up something it shouldn't....

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Posted 8th Nov 2015 at 20:44

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lurch86

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Post #24

Wow, not good! I think the 1.9 is the best engine. Or maybe the cr engine. Heard a few good things about them. Thanks alot for your help anyway. Far more help than the seat forum, didn't even get a reply.

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Posted 9th Nov 2015 at 06:22

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armzsc6

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Post #25

Useless there mate I'm a member on seatcupra and it's such a massive forum no one really replies to technical stuff... only parts that seem busy are members rides or project threads. I can't even find where the f**k to list stuff for sale on there so just stick stuff on eBay instead. ...

The 1.9 engine seems to have a lot less problems with it other than camshaft wear and the poor design of one tiny m6 cheese bolt holding the injectors in place so they wear into the head... the rods are hexagon shaped at the top in 130 and 150 blocks to spread the load put around the gudgeon pin. They can supposedly handle 300bhp and God knows how much torque on standard internals.

Mines been running 190bhp 300 ftlb for 2 years with no problems at all at 141k miles.

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Posted 9th Nov 2015 at 10:31

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