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Author Subject: Decoding/Diagnozing the dyno run results
The Coolest

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Location: Tel Aviv

Registered: 15 Aug 2012

Posts: 64

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Post #1
So I've been to a dyno this Thursday with a few friends, and the results of my 6 aren't as good as I hoped.
It's pretty much a stock 6 engine, with a K&N in-box filter, sport grade cat with a stock exhaust setup.
About 5 months and 2500 miles since last service.
The test was performed on a Mustang Dyno also dubbed the heartbreaker. The results it gives is power/tq at the wheels, not the flywheel. And here's the result:



The guy at the dyno said that there's definitely something off with how the engine operates. The torque graph isn't good, the top end power isn't good either.
I wanted to see what you guys think about what could be the culprit and what should I check.
Posted 13th Apr 2013 at 22:36
welshpug!

Capt Pedantic

Location: Bigend, Wales.

Registered: 27 Mar 2007

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Post #2
AFR is all over the place and a bit on the rich side.

power at the wheels is about right.

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Bring on the Trumpets.

Posted 14th Apr 2013 at 01:47
The Coolest

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Location: Tel Aviv

Registered: 15 Aug 2012

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Post #3
Yes, it does look bad as well. Shouldn't the power above 6000RPM keep going up to at least around 6500? It should hit around 140.
Also the torque graph seems to mirror the AFR graph, do you have any ideas what could cause this problem?
Posted 14th Apr 2013 at 10:13
coskev

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Location: Oswestry

Registered: 01 Nov 2009

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Post #4
Peak power in mine was 6200rpm, drops off then.

What grade/octane fuel did you use?

How does the car drive on the road? If it drives nice and goes ok I would leave it aloneThumbs up

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Red GTB1756 powered Fabia VRS daily driver,LBSC Gti6 eater........

Mac1 ZR R1 kit car build in progress.
Posted 14th Apr 2013 at 11:07
adam b

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Location: The Nam

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Post #5
Have you ever replaced any sensors?
Could be cam timing as they can be played with a tad. This will move the powerband.

Tbh it doesn't look that far out, you are of course assuming the rpm figure is completely accurate - it may not be, depends how its been done. To give you an idea my old car made max torque at 5800 and max power at 6250. The cam timing had been adjusted slightly though.

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Posted 14th Apr 2013 at 11:09
The Coolest

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Location: Tel Aviv

Registered: 15 Aug 2012

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Post #6
coskev:
I use 98 octane fuel.
It seems to drive ok, but I think it feels just a bit more sluggish at the low RPM range than it felt when I got it about 7 months ago. But that could also be cause I went from a 306 1.4 to this one and it just seemed so much better back then Smile

Adam:
In December it wouldn't idle, and just cut off, so I ended up replacing the ICV. We tried replacing the MAP sensor too, but that didn't help and it's now running with the one it came with originally.

The guy at the dyno also has this special microphone to listen if there are knocks or other noises that shouldn't be there. And the high RPM range it seems fine.
At about 2200RPM there's this resonating metallic noise that's louder than the engine itself, it's apparently some heat shield mounted and secured just at one end behind the block to keep heat from coolant hoses.

Just out of interest, I've seen several dyno results from the GTI6 engine, and the torque curve on them was always much higher at low RPM and much flatter across the RPM range.
Posted 14th Apr 2013 at 11:24
pebbles167

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Location: Melksham. Wiltshire.

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Post #7
Use lower octane fuel mate, as far as i know thats what they are designed to run on.

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2005 Peugeot 206 GTI 180

2008 BMW K1200R
Posted 14th Apr 2013 at 11:26
The Coolest

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Post #8
The brochure says 95 or 98 octane. Since 95 octane here can sometimes be 'not really' 95 but lower, I use 98 which is usually better quality and at my regular gas station just a bit more expensive. The previous owner used to run it on 95 with some methanol to get the octane a little higher. When I got it, I filled it up with 95 and drove around. Going over to 98 seemed to make it run smoother and get me a little better mileage.
Posted 14th Apr 2013 at 11:30
honestly3k

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Location: Berkhamsted

Registered: 06 Apr 2009

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Post #9
This was mine, ran on 95 ron standard unleaded
As far as I know they are mapped to run on 97 ron or above from standard?

Guy who ran my rolling road day is extremely knowledgeable about mapping and works for ford.

Said he didn't understand why my torque dropped off at 6200 rpm so sharply, and said it would have been a stock or slightly better than stock result if we had known why that was.
Also said that he could hear/or tell slight pinking or detonation happening in my engine which would point to the lower ron fuel so I think that might be the reason.

I ran the car for 3 weeks after the RR on super unleaded 97 ron. And the car did feel a lot more happy, idled smoother. But I didn't notice any change in power.

Anyway here was my results -

________________________________________

''Oh, it does handle like a golf!'' Why drive a Golf....when you can drive a GTi-6?
Posted 14th Apr 2013 at 11:37
honestly3k

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Post #10
This is what he had to say regarding my results if it helps anyone

Hi Chris, I will seek to expand on my comments regarding your dyno test.

Detonation/Knock - Abnormal or uncontrolled combustion, from multiple flame fronts causing rapid cylinder pressure and heat rise, beyond design limits , thus causing pistons, rods and bearings to resonate.

Knock can have different intensities ranging from light knock ( on a tip in for example) to destructive knock, which can punch a hole in the piston or break ring lands etc.
Anything that can promote heat in combustion chamber and lead to knock i.e. hot intake air charge, lean running, over advanced spark timing, hot spots, pre ignition etc.

In an engine, for a given air density, fuel octane, compression ratio, engine speed, load and AFR, there is a spark advance that would result in maximum torque or MBT. MBT can be limited by the knock limit overwise know as the boarderline det limit (BLD).
In automotive calibration strategy, when the frequency associated with knock is detected by the knock sensors, action is carried out by the ignition feature to reduce timing to stop the knock. The engine controller can determine which cylinders are knocking due the syncing of the crank signal and the cam phase sensor and stereo knock sensors This is a knock window in crankshaft degress. Spark retard intervention will continue until the knock frequency reduces under a threshold. With knock present, the spark reduction starts from minimum retard setpoint action, incremented to a maximum as the knock persists. If the knock stops, this retard is ramped out to base or MBT timing.
With the requirement to run 3 way catalysts and maximum fuel economy, many engines run at lambda 1 at engine speeds up to 4500rpm. Base timing is usually developed on a nominal fuel octane to deliver MBT under these conditions, both for stead state and in transients. In real life the engine can frequently operated out of this test environment and you will need knock control to stop knock tending towards destruction of the engine.
For your car on the day, there was audible det present when the vehicle was being reversed up the rolls during low engine speeds and light to mid throttle excursions or "tip in". This type of knock is usually not dangerous as the knock feature will just simply compensate as I described above. This suggested to me, during those conditions, the base calibration has been done aggressively Peugeot, allowing the engine to be on the det limit (BLD) and causing the knock system be more active to pull spark out. There is also the possibility the fuel quality was poor and not up to the advertised octane content (less than 95RON).
Now I heard the det when I was entering your details in the machine and the car was driven up the rolls besides me. A bit unusual for the sample of vehicles that were tested there that day, given the ambient temp and the light loads required to reverse the car into the rollers. For OEM work for, we do not calibrate our spark cal to knock at such low engine speeds and light to mid throttle openings. Not even in hot climate testing of ambients of over 40 deg C. Peugeot engineers obviously have a different method and for everyday use I do not see a problem. If I were to calibrate this, pending fuel octane content, I just would calibrate this condition differently.
When I was driving the car for the test i.e at full load, I could not hear any audible knock over the external dyno noises at say 3-7000rpm, window down, without my det cans attached to the engine. As a result I do not know if the factory spark settings and perhaps iif the knock system contributed to the torque profile uneveness and perhaps the step in torque at 6200rpm.

Overfueling - Fuel control significantly richer than best torque AFR.

On many factory vehicles, advertised fuel economy/CO2 is very important as is maximum power to an OEM. As indicated above the engine is controlled to achieve a fuel mixture of lambda 1 or more accurately lambda 0.95 to 1.05 for efficient catalyst operation and in turn reducing fuel flow to deliver good drive and FE. At higher loads and engine speeds, the use of lambda 1 may cause excessive heat build up in components, such as the exhaust valves, exhaust pipes and studs. In addition the higher EGTs from lean running can cause the catalyst to exotherm to a brick temperature that could compromise is cell structure (meltdown) and usefulness.
Lambda 1 is also not the best AFR for maximum torque either.
Depending on the depth of calibration strategy, some OEs run a full load fuel set point, richer than LBT (leanest best torque) that achieves cooling of the components. Sometimes the level of fuel set point can cause some cars to run as rich as 11:1, which in turn can reduce maximum torque. This is very common when OE Golf MK3 16v or VR6 was tested at WOT and the fuel mixture, drops to 11:1 from 4500rpm, reducing torque. This fuel set is usually triggered by a load and engine speed threshold. For a NASP petrol engine I can achieve maximum torque at ~ 12.4-13.1 AFR targets.
Your mixture plot for WOT, was significant richer than the above and in places as low as 11:1 AFR. Apart from the step at 6200rpm, the change in fuel mixture also seemed to affect the torque plot.
You should understand I am only describing what I have witnessed at WOT and the effects on maximum measured power and torque on the day. I would expect part load operation would run at lambda 1 and not cause a concern for fuel economy.

Regarding remapping.

I am an OEM professional and have many responsibilities in my role at Ford, some overseas. If I had bin file, addresses of parameters, and logic book for your vehicle's PCM, I would be happy to deliver a more robust calibration that addresses what I described above, leading to more torque and as a possibly power. However without a collection of these, it maybe time consuming and becomes a second job to source. I beleve if this ECU carries an EPROM, I already have buring tools and EEPROM. I am happy to tweak vehicles that are well known, such as older Golfs, JDM stuff etc, in my spare time on a hobby basis i.e. like Simon's.
The advise that was given, was independent and can be used by someone who has these files and equipment to make targeted changes to the vehicle cal, leading to an improvement if it was tested in a back to back or if you were to revisit the Garage Streamline dyno in the future.

________________________________________

''Oh, it does handle like a golf!'' Why drive a Golf....when you can drive a GTi-6?
Posted 14th Apr 2013 at 11:46
The Coolest

Junior User

Location: Tel Aviv

Registered: 15 Aug 2012

Posts: 64

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Post #11
Thanks for that post. It seems that mine is not as off as I thought it was. Just a little bit more choppy than it should be ideally.
Posted 14th Apr 2013 at 13:21
The Coolest

Junior User

Location: Tel Aviv

Registered: 15 Aug 2012

Posts: 64

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Post #12
Just a little update:
Got the injectors out, cleaned everything with carb cleaner fluid, installed new injector filters. The rubber seals were all still in great condition, so reused them.
Engine feels much better now, way more grunt in the low rpm range.
Revs up faster, feels smoother, pulls better.
before: http://youtu.be/ydVXsmZD9Bs
after: http://youtu.be/loyb-WJHJWM
process: http://imgur.com/a/Q4dNc#0
Posted 24th Apr 2013 at 23:40
IvayloPavlov

Regular

Location: Sofia,Bulgaria

Registered: 06 Aug 2012

Posts: 265

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Post #13
Hi,

here it is my Dino.Xsara VTS with GTI6 gearbox and 0.9 kg flywheel cut.

Posted 1st May 2013 at 13:24
The Coolest

Junior User

Location: Tel Aviv

Registered: 15 Aug 2012

Posts: 64

Status: Offline

Post #14
Hi IvayloPavlov,

Thanks for your post.
I've overlayed and resized your results over mine and here is what I came up with, pretty good.
Although your torque figure is lower than mine on the low end and noticeably higher at the top end.
I've got a light flywheel too, but don't know which one exactly (was installed by previous owner)

Posted 1st May 2013 at 13:56

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