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Author Subject: Max revs on stroked XU10J4RS?
sandy

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Post #26
My opinion, based on direct experience... hydraulic lifters can become unreliable past 7500rpm in the XU10J4.

Cast Peugeot cranks often bend if subjected to over 10k and wipe out the bearings. Steel cranks (properly made) don't just increase the rpm damage threshold, they're stiffer and therefore reduce losses, improve bearing reliability and make overall timing more predictable.

Rod length and thrust in this case isn't too big a problem due to the block height, but generally piston speeds over 24m/s mean in conventional engine blocks are to be avoided if you want it to last. The XU10 block does show signs of flex and pinch if this is exceeded without running undesirable clearances for a daily (ish) engine. That threshold is at:

86mm 8450rpm
88mm 8300rpm
92mm 7950rpm
96mm 7600rpm
98mm 7450rpm

You can exceed this reliably if you make suitable provisions to manage the addtional movement and stresses, but you need alot of data on the engine to know what's needed. One of the engines I work on regularly reliably runs up to around 29m/s mean on a 1.5:1 rod/stroke ratio because it's so highly developed and the Hart 427R derivative is even more extreme, but only through exceptional development!
Posted 14th May 2012 at 19:01
pete_rallye

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Post #27
The main thing with the crank is making sure it is perfectly balanced along with the pistons, rods, flywheel and clutch. If it's all balanced together then you'll have a smooth running engine which will put minimal stress on the crank. Obviously a point will come where the rpm is still too much, but I would expect this to be quite high and as Rich said, I would expect the rods and bolts to be a bigger consideration than the crank. With the piston going from roughly 80>0>80mph in less than half a second the stress on the rods and bolts would be immense.

With the lifters Rich has proved that they are reliable well over 8k rpm, but I would be a little concerned if it was a pure race engine, and basically spending it's entire life at 6-9k rpm, and I personally would fit mechanical lifters.

The other thing to consider is longevity. Sure the Maxi engines were revved to 11k rpm, but I suspect they would have had titanium valves and mega lightweight pistons to reduce the stresses. With mega lightweight stuff and high revs comes the need to rebuild the engines regularly. I spoke to Matt at Pug1off a bit back and he told me that the engine he has built that made just over 300bhp at around 9800rpm needed a rebuild every 500 miles. Not a problem if you're pockets are deep enough mind!

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Posted 14th May 2012 at 19:03
fatlapit

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Post #28
birk wrote:
What about the normal standard crank, lightended flywheel and pully, 86.5 pistons, standard head, standard size saanz rods, arp bolts ?

You think 8.5k would be safe ? or should i push it to 9k with my turbo setup?


mate you dont need to rev a turbo engine like that just keep it in the torque band and it will fly, anything over 8.5k i would steel crank it.

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Posted 14th May 2012 at 21:21
birk

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Post #29
I think 8.5k will be the limit on mine, I will find where my peak power/torque is when setting my limit.

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Posted 14th May 2012 at 21:26
fatlapit

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Post #30
i think your turbo will start dropping off at 7800 anyway mate, i bet peak performance will be well under 7000

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Posted 14th May 2012 at 21:37
fatlapit

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Post #31
i`m sticking to stock revs dude

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Posted 14th May 2012 at 21:38
rallyeash

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Post #32
People seem obsessed with revving 8k+. Id rather power where you actually use it which is between 4 and 6.5k.

My engine is just a track day engine not a full out race engine, it only revs to 7600 but peak power which is around 200@wheels is less than 7k

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Posted 14th May 2012 at 21:50
fatlapit

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Post #33
^ good point well presented mate

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Posted 14th May 2012 at 22:00
asim_pug306

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Post #34
This must be the sort of thing discussed at length on Honda forums. VTEC kicks in at 10k yo!!

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Posted 14th May 2012 at 22:50
buzzbrightyear

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Post #35
I'd rather my power came in at 2000 and ended at 6500-7000.
That would be a perfect power band in my opinion,

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Posted 15th May 2012 at 08:59
buzzbrightyear

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Post #36
The power band on the st tdci with the bluefin is great, 1500-3500 rpm , it's instant power as soon as you get just over tickover, the only problem is there's just not enough of it..

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Posted 15th May 2012 at 09:01
fatlapit

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Post #37
turbo ftw always

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Posted 15th May 2012 at 11:02
stan_306gti6 Forum Admin

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Post #38
buzzbrightyear wrote:
I'd rather my power came in at 2000 and ended at 6500-7000.
That would be a perfect power band in my opinion,


I would agree 100% with this. Yes

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Posted 15th May 2012 at 11:09
stan_306gti6 Forum Admin

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Post #39
I think a lot of the posts made in this thread have very good points, if you are talking about a full-time race engine.

I wouldn't be happy having hydraulic lifters in my engine if it was a pure race engine and spent ALL of it's time between 6-8.5k. However, seeing as it's very driveable and happy and every now and then gets its legs stretched to 8k I don't see it as a problem...

I think for each application it is different and before starting a build you need to consider what that engine is going to have to suffer in its life. A road going supercharger conversion like mine running over 450bhp is fine with standard lifters and crank, however if I raised the rev limit even more and put my engine in a pure racing enviroment I would reconsider which components to put in it. Yes

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Posted 15th May 2012 at 11:14
fatlapit

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Post #40
but a blown racing engine wouldnt run past 8k stan imo, for either turbo or sc they would just run out of puff or self destruct as the turbine speed would be off the scale.

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Posted 15th May 2012 at 11:20
allanallen

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Post #41
fatlapit wrote:
but a blown racing engine wouldnt run past 8k stan imo, for either turbo or sc they would just run out of puff or self destruct as the turbine speed would be off the scale.


Please explain this comment as it makes no sense whatsoever

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Posted 15th May 2012 at 12:25
rikky 🦔

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Post #42
best explanation is "this is the gti6 forum, where heads full of magic perform their tricks"

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Posted 15th May 2012 at 12:31
stan_306gti6 Forum Admin

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Post #43
fatlapit wrote:
but a blown racing engine wouldnt run past 8k stan imo, for either turbo or sc they would just run out of puff or self destruct as the turbine speed would be off the scale.


Really?

How did F1 cars manage it then in the late 80's with 1.5l V6 Turbos revving fairly high?

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Peugeot 306 GTi-6
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Posted 15th May 2012 at 13:07
welshpug!

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Post #44
Have seen a Greek evo that revs to 9+, something silly like 850 bhp on low boost, under 1 bar Laugh my ass off

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Posted 15th May 2012 at 13:10
adam b

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Post #45
Most import STi impreza engines run just past 8k iirc.

A friend of mine has a V40 T4 running 450BHp @ 9.5k rpm

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Posted 15th May 2012 at 13:13
matty_rallye

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Post #46
adam b wrote:
Most import STi impreza engines run just past 8k iirc.

A friend of mine has a V40 T4 running 450BHp @ 9.5k rpm


Recent PPC feature?

Is the difference with the S/C engines revving highly and being reliable due to the fact they are on standard camshafts with less lift and duration. As apposed to a n/a engine being unable to sustain this type of rpm on hydraulic lifters, as when there is a need for them to rev this highly they are using cams which have greater lift and duration?

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Posted 15th May 2012 at 13:43
adam b

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Post #47
Yes Ashok's blue one. Its a beast of a thing and very standard-looking.

So the valve has to move further, quicker matty?

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Posted 15th May 2012 at 13:59
dav1

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Post #48
rallyeash wrote:
People seem obsessed with revving 8k+. Id rather power where you actually use it which is between 4 and 6.5k.

My engine is just a track day engine not a full out race engine, it only revs to 7600 but peak power which is around 200@wheels is less than 7k


Why you say this would it not depend on your gearbox an other factors? If you were had your main power between 6 an 9 thou then that we're you would use it? Hope that makes sense lol. I like to widen my knowledge ? I thought the main reason most people increase revs is how you get more power on n/a engines due to wilder cams and other stuff? Cheers dave

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Posted 15th May 2012 at 14:37
henrik c

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Post #49
welshpug! wrote:
Have seen a Greek evo that revs to 9+, something silly like 850 bhp on low boost, under 1 bar Laugh my ass off


Got a freind making 1.200HP on a VW R36 engine by 27 PSI 5.500 revs

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Posted 15th May 2012 at 14:40
ruan

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Post #50
fatlapit wrote:
mate you dont need to rev a turbo engine like that just keep it in the torque band and it will fly, anything over 8.5k i would steel crank it.


End of the day - Torque damages things and RPMs damage things... Take your pick of which you damage - make more of one or the other and you'll end up with more horsepower.

Unless you fancy both - where you'll have masses of horsepower, but damage everything.
Posted 15th May 2012 at 14:50

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