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Author Subject: Head rebuild questions
owain

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Post #1
So, as I know nothing about engines I decided to buy up a spare cylinder head in an attempt to figure out what's what without sacraficing my current engine. However due to the nature of being clueless, I have some questions.

The head was in an unknown condition, bought as a replacement but never fitted. The previous owner didn't think it had been skimmed, and clearly hasn't been recently. Whether or not it has been previously, we'll come to shortly.

First up, I dismantled everything that I could. It had been locked using the standard drill bits, so carefully removed those. I was surprised to find the camshafts didn't exactly spin freely (and no, I wasn't knocking the valve heads into each other, I was being very careful), but were extremely stiff. Whether that's just how they are, or because it doesn't have oil in it I don't know, perhaps someone can Craig David Fill Me In on that one. Anyway, all these bits came off pretty easily, bar one previously chewed up bolt through those fings wot hold the cams down.



Being very careful to keep it all in the right order, of course. Spent a while trying to figure out how the tappets come out, only to find you just need to pull them.

Face + palm moment there.

From what I understand, the hydraulic tappets on these engines fill up from oil underneath when the cam is "up" to make sure it's in constant contact with the cam when it comes "down", is that right? In which case, do they need to be refilled with oil somehow when putting it back together again? Or will the oil pump just do its work?

One of the cylinders looks like it's had some water in it to me:



Nothing monumental, I've seen far worse. Nothing that can't be fixed with a skim and a new gasket, I assume? I'm not massively fussed if it turns out this head is no good, it was more a learning exercise than anything. Would be nice if it worked though.

The valves in the leaky cylinder did have a ring of crud around them, but it cleaned off nicely with no proper damage to them.



Do the little collet things need to stay matched to the correct valve? Or is that too anal?

Cleaned it up with some Gunk, then a quick pressure wash to clean it all out:



Before drying it out with a hot air gun, doesn't look too bad to me.



Can anything else come out of this? I can see the green plastic looking bits where the valves go, are them the valve stem seals I've heard of? Do they need replacing or anything? Also, the valve guides themselves - they look pretty well stuck in, I assume that's an engineer's job to get those out?



Spark plugs look okay to me, not that I'd re-use them for the sake of a tenner.



Get the essentials ready...



Greasy valves:



Clean valves:



I've just degreased them for now, but I saw a thing on t'internet that said it was okay to stick them lightly in a drill and use some wet & dry to clean up the faces of them - does that sound okay? I appreciate you don't want to do the seats until you come to lap them in, but the faces should be okay? I don't really know how much you could do before it started affecting compression.

All looks pretty clean, certainly not been recently skimmed though:



Can't really get rid of the water marks at the other end though, leave this for the skimming?



I did have a quick go at lapping in one of the valves in the "leaky" cylinder and it came up really nicely, there's no deep rust or pitting around it at all.

I'm pretty sure three of the valves are bent, they needed a punch and hammer to remove them (which isn't a great sign) and it's not the guides - a different valve will slot in just fine. I've got a micrometer thing I'll use to measure them up accurately some other time, but those three do seem knackered to me. Is that the kind of thing that'd cause an engine to tap?

Also (and this is probably wishful thinking here), say I replace any bent valves, assemble everything back up carefully oiling (every part? Some parts? Any parts to not oil?) as I go, does that mean it shouldn't tap? Or is there someone I could have missed, something only a trained eye would notice?

I know people do say these tap because they weren't rebuilt properly, but I don't know whether that means "by someone who rushed it and didn't care that valves were bent" or whether that means "by an ignorant fool like you, muppet!".

Also, you might notice from the above pictures that two of the valves are different to the others, they have a different sized pocket. Does that mean at some point they will have gone and the head has probably been skimmed already? I have a feeling (but would need to check) that the new valves might be from the leaky cylinder.

Any opinions, answers, expertise or advice would be most welcome, hopefully it'll help someone else out in the future as well.

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Posted 12th Jul 2011 at 02:35
mr swampy s16

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Post #2
have you number all the valves as you took them out?
as they should go back in to the hole they came from, at least thats what i was taught by a bloke that builds race engines.


as for the bent valves, it has being known that the guide gets damaged by the bent valve running in it, so should be changed and yep thats a machine shop job
Posted 12th Jul 2011 at 02:41
owain

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Post #3
I have indeed kept them all in order to make sure they go back in correctly Yes

Any way of checking the guides? Or are they a "if a straight valve goes in okay that's close enough" job?

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Posted 12th Jul 2011 at 02:47
mr swampy s16

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Post #4
Best speak to mech repair or such like for that.
Havent re built a head in long time.
Posted 12th Jul 2011 at 03:11
paul_13

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Post #5
Does look like it's had a skim before, wouldn't be nice and shiny across the whole face of the head.
The cylinder rings would be alot more pronounce as well as the oil/water jacket holes, the gasket would of left marks.

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Private work, not a prob Smile
Posted 12th Jul 2011 at 03:24
paul_13

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Post #6
Do all the cam journals look in good nick? Can't really tell from the pics.

Definately replace the oil stem seals, I do believe I have a spare set at home, aswell as aload of other head bits. Let me know if your interested. Theyre the make Payen

If you've had to removed the valve with a punch and hammer the guides probably f*cked. Did any material come out with it?

If the guide is damamged/bent it will most likely tap when put back together.

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205 GTI6- Rebuilt engine, lightened flywheel, lightened pulley, 307 hdi brakes, Koni struts on gravel spec springs, 22mm TB's, 24mm ARB, Roll cage, Citreon ZX rear dampers, SL434's, Xsara box, Quickrack, Pipercross enclosed induction kit. Smile

Private work, not a prob Smile
Posted 12th Jul 2011 at 03:44
owain

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Post #7
Skimmed before hey? Does that completely rule out another skim, or would I need to run a thicker gasket?

I don't really know how the cam journals are meant to look, but there's certainly nothing that looks "wrong" - a few marks but nothing I'd consider a gouge or scratch. I'll try and get some pictures up tonight.

How do you replace the oil stem seals?

No material came out with the valves, and it's not like I had to really whack them to come out - just a light tap, and they wouldn't really pull out by hand like the others did.

Again not that I'd necessarily bother with this one, but what's the deal with getting the guides done? Could any place that does skimming do it? Are the guides specific, or just an ID/OD job?

Cheers muchly Smile
O.

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Posted 12th Jul 2011 at 12:46
daveyboy

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Post #8
Guides are a specialist job, but any good engine shop should be able to do it. For cleaning the valves, chuck them in a battery drill and use some parafin or WD40 on some green scotch pad and spin them up whilst they spin. Stay off the swept area of the ste though as you don't want to touch that. New valves won't be any good in damaged guides so not the positions of the suspect ones and get them K-Lined or replaced.
For getting the valve stem oil seals out a pair of stem seal pliers is a godsend, however they are an expensive luxury when a heavy duty pair of needle nosed pliers will do, just yank the buggers off (they are always trashed in the process whatever tool you use so don't worry about damage) they are slippery little f*ckers though so try not to scratch any machined surfaces as you wrestle them off 9they pull straight up by the way, not threaded or anything silly like that)

As for collets, as long as they are undamaged and don't look badly worn, you can mate them up to any valve you like. As a point of note, mike up the heads, if you have had valve bounce in the past the heads can 'mushroom' causing them not to come out of the guides easily and damage them (this may be why you had to tap them out with a hammer and punch and not because they were bent) I'd hate for you to pay for new guides only to damage them forcing a damaged valve back in. The heads should be the same diameter as the stem. Compare it to the unworn part of the stem for an accurate result.

The head face looks good enough to bolt straight back on, check carefully for any dings or scratches that may affect the gasket seal, pay particular attention around the fire ring area (5mm around all the cylinders) and near any of the waterways or oil holes, a tiny scratch in the middle away from any drillings is nothing to worry about. I'd check the head for flatness with a straght edge and a feeler guage though. Can't remember the tolerance you are looking for but you should'nt be able to slide a very thin blade anywhere (use the straight edge lengthways, crossways and diagonaly across the surface)

As for the stifness you mentioned when trying to rotate the cams, the valve springs are incredibly strong and will be pushing the lifters into contact with the cam lobes causing a lot of friction, it's not a good idea to turn them unless they are liberally coated with cam lube or graphogen but either way, it's very hard to turn them by hand, you would normally put a ratchet on one of the cam sprocket nuts to turn if you had to, but bear in mind that you cannot fully rotate one cam without the valves clashing.

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Posted 12th Jul 2011 at 16:44
owain

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Post #9
Nice one Mr Davey, some handy info in there Yes

Hadn't thought about measuring the valves any more than checking they weren't bent, that's another thing to check.

How about replacing the stem seals? Something I can do, or one to give to the shop when the guides are done? And how much do they cost, and where can you get them?

Tell you what I'm glad I wasn't buying this head to stick straight on a car, I do not get the impression that would've ended well...

EDIT: I'll try the feeler guages on the surface also, cheers.

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Posted 12th Jul 2011 at 16:33
daveyboy

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Post #10
owain wrote:
Nice one Mr Davey, some handy info in there Yes

Hadn't thought about measuring the valves any more than checking they weren't bent, that's another thing to check.

How about replacing the stem seals? Something I can do, or one to give to the shop when the guides are done? And how much do they cost, and where can you get them?

Tell you what I'm glad I wasn't buying this head to stick straight on a car, I do not get the impression that would've ended well...

EDIT: I'll try the feeler guages on the surface also, cheers.


Stem seals you can pop on easily once you get the guides sorted, just find a suitable socket that fits on the top of the metal collar and tap them on till they stop with a small hammer (It's worth checking they are retained properly after by gently pulling on them as I have heard of faulty stem seals that fall back off, also can be a problem if the collar on the guide is damaged or incorrectly sized by the machinist)
Genuine Pug for the win on that sort of stuff, valves I got from QEP (Quality engine products) (Under £200 for all 16) if it turns out you need any.

I'll find out how far out of flat the head can be but it's around 1-2 thousandth of an inch from memory.

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Posted 12th Jul 2011 at 17:12
owain

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Post #11
Hmm, according to this thread, QEP went under some time ago.

Now just to find an engineers near me who does engines...

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Posted 12th Jul 2011 at 17:44
daveyboy

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Post #12
owain wrote:
Hmm, according to this thread, QEP went under some time ago.

Now just to find an engineers near me who does engines...


Their site is still up, with a link to these guys, based in Sussex.

Not a clicky, cos I find them tricky.

http://www.automotivemachineservices.co.uk/services-1.htm

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R H Davey Welding Supplies. I sell new and used welding equipment in the Hampshire area. I take on welding jobs in the evenings, ally casting repairs are one of my specialities but I can weld pretty much anything. PM me with your requirements.

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Engine mount/chassis repair
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Posted 12th Jul 2011 at 17:57
daveyboy

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Post #13
My 111,000 mile old valves came up like this, you can scotchbrite the stems too, but do it radially, with plenty of oil. This leaves a nice oil retentive finish.



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R H Davey Welding Supplies. I sell new and used welding equipment in the Hampshire area. I take on welding jobs in the evenings, ally casting repairs are one of my specialities but I can weld pretty much anything. PM me with your requirements.

Some of my services: (See my for sale threads)
Engine mount/chassis repair
Solid Beam Mounts BACK IN PRODUCTION
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Posted 12th Jul 2011 at 18:16
owain

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Post #14
Wow, they look pretty fair. I've got a pillar drill, so I guess I can put them in that and give it a go.

Hope the other half has lots of Sky+ to watch tonight...

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Posted 12th Jul 2011 at 18:20
daveyboy

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Post #15
owain wrote:
Wow, they look pretty fair. I've got a pillar drill, so I guess I can put them in that and give it a go.

Hope the other half has lots of Sky+ to watch tonight...


Yes, don't let them slip in the chuck though as it will damage the stem, at the same time though, don't grip them so tight it marks the stem either. If you do decide to clean up the stems themselves don't hang around too long, use lots of WD40 and fine scotchbrite, you just want to clean, not remove material. The pillar drill is the ideal tool to check for bent valves, assuming it's got a nice true chuck that is Wink

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R H Davey Welding Supplies. I sell new and used welding equipment in the Hampshire area. I take on welding jobs in the evenings, ally casting repairs are one of my specialities but I can weld pretty much anything. PM me with your requirements.

Some of my services: (See my for sale threads)
Engine mount/chassis repair
Solid Beam Mounts BACK IN PRODUCTION
Harness bars
Posted 12th Jul 2011 at 18:29
daveyboy

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Post #16
Looking at that head it might be an idea to think about some deeper pockets in your pistons, as there's not much meat around the valve seats it would suggest it's had a fairly generous skimming at some point.

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R H Davey Welding Supplies. I sell new and used welding equipment in the Hampshire area. I take on welding jobs in the evenings, ally casting repairs are one of my specialities but I can weld pretty much anything. PM me with your requirements.

Some of my services: (See my for sale threads)
Engine mount/chassis repair
Solid Beam Mounts BACK IN PRODUCTION
Harness bars
Posted 12th Jul 2011 at 18:29
owain

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Post #17
Yeah tbh what with the two already replaced valves, other bent ones, the leaky cylinder and if you say it's been skimmed as well it seems unlikely I'll ever use the head for anything, probably just a project rather than anything and get another if I need it.

Shame really, would've been a bonus to get it back in good nick. Still, probably lucky for the previous owner she never tried fitting it Wink

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Posted 12th Jul 2011 at 19:03
daveyboy

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Post #18
Tbh if you can pocket the pistons and fit the head the extra compression from the skimming and the ability to advance the cams (or fit some more sporty ones while it's off) would free up some handy power.

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Some of my services: (See my for sale threads)
Engine mount/chassis repair
Solid Beam Mounts BACK IN PRODUCTION
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Posted 12th Jul 2011 at 19:20
owain

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Post #19
Hmm, interesting thought. If my current engine did screw up, I'd definitely look at doing it properly. Just depends on costs I spose.

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Posted 12th Jul 2011 at 20:20
welshpug!

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Post #20
you need to measure the total height of the head to see how much it has been skimmed, I'll try and find out what the stock tolerance is meant to be later, Sandy Brown has said the safe max skim is 0.25mm, he's seen first hand what 0.3mm and PT81's can do and the damage is shown in the "max lift @TDC" thread Smile

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Posted 12th Jul 2011 at 21:04
owain

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Post #21
Yeah had a read through that thread, but the vast majority it well beyond my understanding Smile

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Posted 12th Jul 2011 at 21:08
daveyboy

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Post #22
owain wrote:
Yeah had a read through that thread, but the vast majority it well beyond my understanding Smile


It's pretty much irrelevant if you machine some safety margin into the piston tops. Skimmed heads and standard pistons don't mix at tbe best of times, add a little advance or some valve float when you get excited on a downshift and buzz the engine and you will have valve to piston contact for sure Wink

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R H Davey Welding Supplies. I sell new and used welding equipment in the Hampshire area. I take on welding jobs in the evenings, ally casting repairs are one of my specialities but I can weld pretty much anything. PM me with your requirements.

Some of my services: (See my for sale threads)
Engine mount/chassis repair
Solid Beam Mounts BACK IN PRODUCTION
Harness bars
Posted 12th Jul 2011 at 21:14
owain

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Post #23
Well that all sounds very promising, I look forward to spending hours rebuilding a head just to end up destroying it LOL

So, as someone who hasn't got a clue what they're doing (hello) what would you suggest is the best way to rebuild a head should I need one? One like this, then see about getting pistons machined, or start with a dirty old head that's never been skimmed and start on that?

My current engine is well down on power, so it's not impossible I'd stick a new head on it at some point.

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Posted 12th Jul 2011 at 21:17
welshpug!

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Post #24
unless you use a repair gasket (thicker by +0.2mm at 1.4mm IIRC) and use std cams (or VERY mild cams) then machined / aftermarket pistons are the only way to a safe engine Smile

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Posted 12th Jul 2011 at 21:24
owain

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Post #25
Ah, gotcha. And which are best to go for? Presumably aftermarkets are more for low comp builds and the extra strength required for boost, if you were just camming, machining ftw?

Does machining out the pistons not drop the compression down again though?

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Posted 12th Jul 2011 at 21:26

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