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Author Subject: Project Induction kit
monkeyman

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Post #26
I went to a rolling road organised by 306.net on Sunday. I'd put the original air filter setup back on for a week, but it was still running rich. I thought normal driving would be enough to adjust the ECU, but didn't know you had to drive through all rev speeds and throttle positions to give the ECU enough data to adjust.


It had two runs on the original filter, this was then swapped over, I went for a 10 minute drive in monsoon rain, then had a couple of runs with the new induction kit.

Changes -

Different wheels/rims, previous run was on 15 x 45, this was on 16 x 45 tyres.
Different location, but still a Dyno Dynamics station.
Different air temps, air pressure and humidity.

There were 10 or so other cars being dynoed there, the drivers seemed happy with the readings, nothing high or low, just about expected results.


175 hp 153 ft/lb so a bit lower than the previous dyno.

A quick vid of the heavy rain I drove through, no problems with the filter in the fog light.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eq8Bh785fCs]Video


shows the overfuelling.

Any ideas on the causes of this, would a new Lambda sensor help? Someone told me that the Lambda is only used for light engine loads, but when the throttle is open more the ECU just uses its map.

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Posted 23rd Nov 2009 at 20:32
adam b

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Post #27
Yes I've been told that as well, but mine didn't half go better flat out with a new lambda. TPS made a huge difference too.

Bit confused as to what the differences are on the two maps....?

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Posted 23rd Nov 2009 at 21:13
monkeyman

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Post #28
Green is the standard air filter + overfuelling, red is with the induction kit.

Top printout shows power and torque, the second one shows power / air fuel ratio.

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Posted 23rd Nov 2009 at 21:37
adam b

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Post #29
Ah right sorry, wasn't looking at it properly.
Big difference shown there, but it is pretty down on power to start with - was the standard air filter made of concrete of something?

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Posted 23rd Nov 2009 at 23:04
c.a.r.

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Post #30
Definately was going to make a point of laughing if it made no difference on Sunday LOL

Looks to have made good gains, certainly sounded way meatier with the kit on! I need to try and fab some sort of cold air feed as I quite like my foglights where they are unfortunately...

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Posted 24th Nov 2009 at 04:25
monkeyman

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Post #31
adam b wrote:

Big difference shown there, but it is pretty down on power to start with - was the standard air filter made of concrete of something?


The only thing changed was the induction setup. I was hoping for a standard run to show 165 ish hp, maybe a bit higher with the small mods from my first post.

The lower figure was mainly due to the overfuelling I guess. A new Lambda and retest are the next plan.

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Posted 24th Nov 2009 at 18:04
ventos

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Post #32





Just want to share my solution:










Posted 9th Dec 2009 at 03:42
monkeyman

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Post #33
Very similar setup, the flexible ducting is a bit more turbulent than the silicone hose. I like the front scoop.

It looks like the engine temp sensor needs replacing on mine so that is the next job, and then some warmer weather hopefully for the next RR : )

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Posted 11th Dec 2009 at 16:38
welshpug!

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Post #34
warmer weather for the RR?? maaaad, want as cold as possible for maximum powwwaaahhhh!

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Posted 11th Dec 2009 at 16:47
razzario

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Post #35
welshpug! wrote:
warmer weather for the RR?? maaaad, want as cold as possible for maximum powwwaaahhhh!


yep, attacked my 200 sx intercooler with a fire extinguiser many a time LOL
Posted 16th Dec 2009 at 17:50
monkeyman

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Post #36
I replaced the green engine temp sensor and the engine feels much better now that the fuelling is better.

It'l still be a while before the next RR day to get some new figures, maybe end of January.

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Posted 17th Dec 2009 at 20:48
monkeyman

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Post #37
Here's the printout form the RR at the end of March



Temp sensor has been fixed, I'll put the original air box and a new paper filter on it for the RR on the 18th April, see if I can get an accurate before graph at last.

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Posted 6th Apr 2010 at 02:05
scoty18

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Post #38
Seems like you have put a lot of time and effort in to this bud. hope you're before dyno turns out lower than the after one.

You could probably put a straw from the drivers seat down to the air intake and blow hard as you can to get the same results as a filter kit with to much hose.

I think for best results would be a enclosed filter with as small amount of pipe work between the throttle bodie to the filter as possible then a good large cold air feed. Would need to research materials for the cold air feed, enclosure and pipe work because you don't want the engine heat to cook the air while it travels through the system (possibly carbon?). I think relocating the battery to the boot, Then putting a Enclosed kit where the battery sits with silicon pipe work and cold air feed would be better than the solution your going for. Its not hard to move the battery and having the filter higher removes the risk of flooding. I think you could do it my way for less that £250 as well and get the most bang for buck when it comes to air intake. But saying that i doubt it will make much difference over the standard setup. You got to mind the GTI 6 was designed to be a fast car in the 1st place so im sure PUG would of designed the air intake to a high standard anyways.

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  • Posted 10th Apr 2010 at 23:41
    chrissykapow

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    Post #39
    Ran a similar sort of idea but with a K&N Apollo :-) although it's a c.i.s . Don't really fancy my filter that exposed and so close to the floor, as per one of the pictures above. Looks like a lot of effort gone into it though Thumbs up

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    Posted 10th Apr 2010 at 23:43
    monkeyman

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    Post #40
    There's another RR on the 18th April, so I've put the original air filter an and a new paper air filter in it, I also did an ECU reset while swapping them over, hopefully the air/fuel ratio will get a bit better.

    Should be able to do a before and after run on the same day, with a bit of driving inbetween to get the ECU used to the higher flow filter.

    Scoty18 - the pipe is long to keep the torque up, a shorter pipe would increase bhp a little at the top end, but loose mid range torque. Its the torque in after.

    The 306 was designed when engineers had a bit more say in the design process, but most parts of a car are nowadays made to be 1) as cheap as possible, 2) to comply with noise regulations. Motorsports in the other hand tend to be expensive and noisy.

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    Posted 11th Apr 2010 at 16:46
    mxcrazy

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    Post #41
    monkeyman wrote:
    Scoty18 - the pipe is long to keep the torque up, a shorter pipe would increase bhp a little at the top end, but loose mid range torque. Its the torque in after.


    Does this really have any relation to top end or torque? On a stock intake manifold any of the pulse tuning is done within the manifold and plenum.

    Its also not right in that long is for torque and short is for top end if thats the way you are thinking! There are overlap boundaries with pulse tuning so an 4ft length could yield more top end than an 8 inch length.
    Posted 11th Apr 2010 at 16:54
    scoty18

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    Post #42
    Yea but the engine is only 4 cylinder N/A so I wouldn't think that pipe length is going to really affect the midrange that much I think the air been heated up more in the longer length of pipe would be a bigger factor and would cripple any torque gains with a long pipe. The colder the air is the denser it is. Therefore more bang?

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  • Posted 11th Apr 2010 at 17:04
    monkeyman

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    Post #43
    Fluid dynamics is a bit of a nightmare, I wont pretend to understand it, but when I complain about it the induction guy just says "Take it up with the guy who invented physics!"

    On the C2 car, the VTR/S has aircon and only room for a small pipe behind the bulkhead. The GT doesn't have aircon and has room for a much longer pipe setup, which gives a bigger torque improvement.



    but I take your point that there are no hard and fast rules. Denis made up his own induction kit and got some good figures at the recent RR in Purfleet.

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    Posted 11th Apr 2010 at 17:06
    mxcrazy

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    Post #44
    Try an intercooler, cone filter on one end, then pipe work from the other end to the throttle body, surely wind chill will cool the air below ambient temps. haha

    Ramair is pointless, doesnt work untill like 160mph anyway so doesnt matter if the filter isnt sucking directly from the front of the motor.
    Posted 11th Apr 2010 at 22:44
    sport1901966

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    Post #45
    AS said above ram air in theory will do very little, even at 160mph the additional pressure at the intake is only going to be in the region of 0.03bar or less than 0.5psi. The advantage it may provide, which is a bit more difficult to quantify, is some reduction in the engine pumping losses. Although again this is likely to be almost insignificant.

    The basic aim of any performance induction system is to provide the highest possible pressure at the valve around BDC of the intake stroke. An intake system which promotes good flow will allow for greater mass flow rate and therefore higher pressure. Additionally the greater the pressure gradient between the entrance to the intake system and the cylinder the greater the mass flow rate will be. As mass flow rate is a funtion of the air density as well as the velocity (assuming fixed intake geometry) it can be increased by increasing the density, hence cooling the air also improves performance.

    The problem is, without drastic changes to the intake configuration (tb's or forced induction) none of the above can be varied enough to significantly increase the volumetric efficiency and therefore torque the engine produces.
    Posted 11th Apr 2010 at 23:59
    scoty18

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    Post #46
    sport1901966 wrote:

    The basic aim of any performance induction system is to provide the highest possible pressure at the valve around BDC of the intake stroke. An intake system which promotes good flow will allow for greater mass flow rate and therefore higher pressure. Additionally the greater the pressure gradient between the entrance to the intake system and the cylinder the greater the mass flow rate will be. As mass flow rate is a funtion of the air density as well as the velocity (assuming fixed intake geometry) it can be increased by increasing the density, hence cooling the air also improves performance.


    I might be wrong but to create flow you need a force in our case the suction from the engine but to create pressure you need to some how restrict the flow like the air intake system (Filter, filter housing and manifold shape). So if you put a huge cone filter on with large diameter pipework you are reducing the restriction therefore reducing pressure. So to create more pressure you would need more flow again to compensate for the lack of restriction. Possibly by increasing the fuel been sprayed into the cylinder? So in theory to get results from any induction kit you need to increase fuel pressure (A ratio between fuel and air pressure?). I think anyway.
    I know that on some of the trucks I work on at work, that if you take out the air filter the truck runs poorly because there is nothing restricting airflow. The truck idles a bit higher and lacks torque. However I only really work on diesel and LPG engines which are designed for torque rather than power (BHP).

    This is why TBs work so well because they don't create pressure till the last possible moment. Therefore reducing any air density losses in extensive pipe work, filter housings and manifolds..

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  • Posted 12th Apr 2010 at 01:15
    sport1901966

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    Post #47
    The flow is caused by the depression caused by the cylinder moving down the bore - creating a region of low presssure. Air flows from the intake entrance because the pressure there is higher (atmospheric). Assuming a constant air density the greater this pressure differential the faster the air will flow and, taking into account the inertia of the air, the more will end up in the cylinder prior to the valve closing. The pressure difference is what creates the force on the air. It's all about loosing as little pressure through the manifold as possible.

    The problem with intake systems is they cause pressure loss, where there a corners or large expansions of contractions turbulence occurs and eddys form.

    Using a less restrictive system (large filter/larger diameter ducting) would result in slower airflow - the same mass of air still needs to travel to the low pressure region to balance to the pressure, but it has a bigger path to travel through. - Imagine 10 people trying to get through a 1 person wide corridor, to get them all through in'x' amount of time they would have to run very fast, if you were to make the corridor 10 people wide, they wouldn't have to run to all get through in the same amount of time..... If that makes any sense at all Razz. The advantage of a larger system is less pressure loss as the air is flowing at a slower speed therefore wall friction etc will be less significant. Although there is a whole other area of resonance tuning and inertia tuning when talking about length/diameter of intake runners.

    Throttle bodies work so well as so little pressure is lost between the intake valve and their entrance that the pressure at the intake valve is more or less atmospheric - the best it can be before using forced induction.

    Fuel is always more or less an after thought. When you know how much air you can get into the cylinder you just put in the right amount of fuel to acheive the AFR you want.

    I'd suspect the running of the trucks or more likely to be down to mapping although I'm surprised it makes much difference at all assuming they are turbo'd engines?
    Posted 12th Apr 2010 at 14:17
    scoty18

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    Post #48
    sport1901966 wrote:

    I'd suspect the running of the trucks or more likely to be down to mapping although I'm surprised it makes much difference at all assuming they are turbo'd engines?


    Blink learn something new every day Smile

    And they are mainly N/A engines. I work on small plant like forklifts and generators and ATV Smile Although the larger forklifts have turbos but iv never payed much difference to what happens without the air filter. prob not much except they'll hover up all the dirt round about and wreak the engine.

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  • Posted 12th Apr 2010 at 21:49
    sport1901966

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    Post #49
    Don't quote me on that it's a guess but from my experience the difference noticed by taking out the air filter wouldn't be that noticable. Unless of course they have some specially designed induction system Crazy

    There must be some explaination and you may well be right although it would be suprising that removing a flow restriction would reduce torque. Maybe the filter is used as some kind of flow conditioner, improving flow through the rest of the system.....
    Posted 13th Apr 2010 at 00:50

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