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Author Subject: Engine bearings
rikky 🦔

Location: cheshire

Registered: 28 Feb 2004

Posts: 26,794

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Post #26
heard of tuning companies using them to use much heavier oils so i stand by what i posted.. so what you are saying is you are just as without-experience as i was?! LOL

can i post the photo back to you? Razz

________________________________________

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Posted 21st May 2012 at 22:39
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midlife

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Location: Colne, Lancashire

Registered: 13 Mar 2006

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Post #27
rikky wrote:
heard of tuning companies using them to use much heavier oils so i stand by what i posted.. so what you are saying is you are just as without-experience as i was?! LOL

can i post the photo back to you? Razz


I never said I was an engine building expertDunno

Cool

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Posted 21st May 2012 at 23:08
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daveyboy

aka Jim Davey

Location: Southampton

Registered: 01 Oct 2007

Posts: 8,648

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Post #28
midlife wrote:
Let's get something clear here, you can't measure to tenths of a thou with a micrometer.
Even if you are using really expensive mics anything less than a thou is pure unrepeatable guess work.
There are plenty of more accurate methods but the equipment you would need would be very expensive....
In my opinion plastigauge ftmfw!

Cool



So why then do they bother to put tenths of thou markings on micrometers then? Surely you can get a close enough measurement by taking two or three readings and averaging the result. My point was that accurate enough measurements for engine work can be obtained from relatively cheap tools.

________________________________________

R H Davey Welding Supplies. I sell new and used welding equipment in the Hampshire area. I take on welding jobs in the evenings, ally casting repairs are one of my specialities but I can weld pretty much anything. PM me with your requirements.

Some of my services: (See my for sale threads)
Engine mount/chassis repair
Solid Beam Mounts BACK IN PRODUCTION
Harness bars
Posted 22nd May 2012 at 02:38
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allanallen

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Location: Buxton

Registered: 01 May 2007

Posts: 1,399

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Post #29
pete_rallye wrote:
Those bearings above are also available with an additional thou clearance, why would you want that!? Also, the difference between minimum and Max vertical oil clearance is greater than 2 thou, so assuming you're between those 2 figures you'd be ok?


Yep, get your plastigauge out and check the clearance is between the 2 figures and you'll be fine. If you want to use your mic you want to be checking the crank is up to spec (48-48.016mm).

I've personally no idea why you'd want extra clearance, it's not something I've ever come across but I'm far from a pro engine builder Big grin

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Posted 22nd May 2012 at 05:52
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midlife

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Location: Colne, Lancashire

Registered: 13 Mar 2006

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Post #30
daveyboy wrote:
midlife wrote:
Let's get something clear here, you can't measure to tenths of a thou with a micrometer.
Even if you are using really expensive mics anything less than a thou is pure unrepeatable guess work.
There are plenty of more accurate methods but the equipment you would need would be very expensive....
In my opinion plastigauge ftmfw!

Cool



So why then do they bother to put tenths of thou markings on micrometers then? Surely you can get a close enough measurement by taking two or three readings and averaging the result. My point was that accurate enough measurements for engine work can be obtained from relatively cheap tools.


R-R use a thing called measurement system analysis (used to be called gauge r&r), you get a group of people to measure a quantity of parts with the same equipment several times & record the results.
Put the results into spc software like minitab, the spk we use is 1.6 I think, if the results are outside 1.6 the method is not accurate enough.
10th of a thou marks on a mic are there to give you a good guestimate, not an accurate measurement I'm afraid.Geek

Cool

________________________________________

Get used to seeing the yellow one !!!MehMehMehMehMeh
Team 330™Cool
Team "no front end or engine"
Team "LIMITED EDITION" I live for the 306 stickerSmug
Team 0-60 in 6.44 & standing qtr in 14.808 @ 94.55mph all with std engineSmug
203bhp Corolla T-Sport daily driver stealthier than Kwai Chang Caine
Posted 22nd May 2012 at 07:46
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daveyboy

aka Jim Davey

Location: Southampton

Registered: 01 Oct 2007

Posts: 8,648

Status: Offline
Post #31
midlife wrote:
daveyboy wrote:
midlife wrote:
Let's get something clear here, you can't measure to tenths of a thou with a micrometer.
Even if you are using really expensive mics anything less than a thou is pure unrepeatable guess work.
There are plenty of more accurate methods but the equipment you would need would be very expensive....
In my opinion plastigauge ftmfw!

Cool



So why then do they bother to put tenths of thou markings on micrometers then? Surely you can get a close enough measurement by taking two or three readings and averaging the result. My point was that accurate enough measurements for engine work can be obtained from relatively cheap tools.


R-R use a thing called measurement system analysis (used to be called gauge r&r), you get a group of people to measure a quantity of parts with the same equipment several times & record the results.
Put the results into spc software like minitab, the spk we use is 1.6 I think, if the results are outside 1.6 the method is not accurate enough.
10th of a thou marks on a mic are there to give you a good guestimate, not an accurate measurement I'm afraid.Geek

Cool


Not in so many words but that's exactly what I was trying to say Smile the level of accuracy that you can achieve even with a small ammount of erroor is still more than good enough for engine work.

________________________________________

R H Davey Welding Supplies. I sell new and used welding equipment in the Hampshire area. I take on welding jobs in the evenings, ally casting repairs are one of my specialities but I can weld pretty much anything. PM me with your requirements.

Some of my services: (See my for sale threads)
Engine mount/chassis repair
Solid Beam Mounts BACK IN PRODUCTION
Harness bars
Posted 22nd May 2012 at 09:25
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pete_rallye

Seasoned Pro

Location: Yorkshire

Registered: 12 Dec 2002

Posts: 5,253

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Post #32
allanallen wrote:
pete_rallye wrote:
Those bearings above are also available with an additional thou clearance, why would you want that!? Also, the difference between minimum and Max vertical oil clearance is greater than 2 thou, so assuming you're between those 2 figures you'd be ok?


Yep, get your plastigauge out and check the clearance is between the 2 figures and you'll be fine. If you want to use your mic you want to be checking the crank is up to spec (48-48.016mm).

I've personally no idea why you'd want extra clearance, it's not something I've ever come across but I'm far from a pro engine builder Big grin


Do you mean 44.975-44.991? That's the min max crank journal dimensions isn't it? The 48-48.016 is the inside measurement of the rod big end bore isn't it?

Glad I spent £100 odd quid on a micrometer now you're telling me to use plastiguage!! LOL

________________________________________

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Oulton Park in a BTCC 306 vid 2
Lap of the 'ring
Posted 22nd May 2012 at 10:11
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midlife

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Location: Colne, Lancashire

Registered: 13 Mar 2006

Posts: 7,544

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Post #33
pete_rallye wrote:
allanallen wrote:
pete_rallye wrote:
Those bearings above are also available with an additional thou clearance, why would you want that!? Also, the difference between minimum and Max vertical oil clearance is greater than 2 thou, so assuming you're between those 2 figures you'd be ok?


Yep, get your plastigauge out and check the clearance is between the 2 figures and you'll be fine. If you want to use your mic you want to be checking the crank is up to spec (48-48.016mm).

I've personally no idea why you'd want extra clearance, it's not something I've ever come across but I'm far from a pro engine builder Big grin


Do you mean 44.975-44.991? That's the min max crank journal dimensions isn't it? The 48-48.016 is the inside measurement of the rod big end bore isn't it?

Glad I spent £100 odd quid on a micrometer now you're telling me to use plastiguage!! LOL


It will look good on the mantlepiece thoughLaugh my ass off

Cool

________________________________________

Get used to seeing the yellow one !!!MehMehMehMehMeh
Team 330™Cool
Team "no front end or engine"
Team "LIMITED EDITION" I live for the 306 stickerSmug
Team 0-60 in 6.44 & standing qtr in 14.808 @ 94.55mph all with std engineSmug
203bhp Corolla T-Sport daily driver stealthier than Kwai Chang Caine
Posted 22nd May 2012 at 12:32
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pete_rallye

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Post #34
I don't have a mantlepiece Sad Maybe I'll put a big glass display case in my garage for all the ridiculously expensive tools I have but don't use? It can go next to the display shelf of broken engine pieces!

________________________________________

Oulton Park in a BTCC 306 vid 1
Oulton Park in a BTCC 306 vid 2
Lap of the 'ring
Posted 22nd May 2012 at 13:05
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midlife

Seasoned Pro

Location: Colne, Lancashire

Registered: 13 Mar 2006

Posts: 7,544

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Post #35
Laugh my ass off

________________________________________

Get used to seeing the yellow one !!!MehMehMehMehMeh
Team 330™Cool
Team "no front end or engine"
Team "LIMITED EDITION" I live for the 306 stickerSmug
Team 0-60 in 6.44 & standing qtr in 14.808 @ 94.55mph all with std engineSmug
203bhp Corolla T-Sport daily driver stealthier than Kwai Chang Caine
Posted 22nd May 2012 at 13:10
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rich_w

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Location: Havant, Hampshire

Registered: 29 Jul 2004

Posts: 5,412

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Post #36
pete_rallye wrote:
Those bearings above are also available with an additional thou clearance, why would you want that!? Also, the difference between minimum and Max vertical oil clearance is greater than 2 thou, so assuming you're between those 2 figures you'd be ok?



The bearings I use in all of the big power S/C motors have additional vertical oil clearance (1 thou).

It's main purpose is to gain additional oil flow through the journal, to help with heat dissipation.

With the increased RPMs and wild cylinder pressure envelope curves, the bearings are working a lot harder than on a standard engine...

Smile

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rich@lynxpowerengineering.co.uk
07732 822546

Posted 22nd May 2012 at 13:14
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stan_306gti6 Forum Admin

Location: Kent

Registered: 18 Jan 2004

Posts: 21,768

Status: Offline
Post #37
rich_w wrote:
pete_rallye wrote:
Those bearings above are also available with an additional thou clearance, why would you want that!? Also, the difference between minimum and Max vertical oil clearance is greater than 2 thou, so assuming you're between those 2 figures you'd be ok?



The bearings I use in all of the big power S/C motors have additional vertical oil clearance (1 thou).

It's main purpose is to gain additional oil flow through the journal, to help with heat dissipation.

With the increased RPMs and wild cylinder pressure envelope curves, the bearings are working a lot harder than on a standard engine...

Smile


I guess this is one of the reasons why my engine has been 100% reliable. Yes

________________________________________

"Supercharged - 454.1bhp/317.5lb/ft"
Peugeot 306 GTi-6
2000 (X), Moonstone Love
Posted 22nd May 2012 at 13:17
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pete_rallye

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Post #38
Nice one, cheers for the understandable explanation Rich (take note Rikky Razz)

________________________________________

Oulton Park in a BTCC 306 vid 1
Oulton Park in a BTCC 306 vid 2
Lap of the 'ring
Posted 22nd May 2012 at 13:17
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allanallen

Seasoned Pro

Location: Buxton

Registered: 01 May 2007

Posts: 1,399

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Post #39
pete_rallye wrote:
allanallen wrote:
pete_rallye wrote:
Those bearings above are also available with an additional thou clearance, why would you want that!? Also, the difference between minimum and Max vertical oil clearance is greater than 2 thou, so assuming you're between those 2 figures you'd be ok?


Yep, get your plastigauge out and check the clearance is between the 2 figures and you'll be fine. If you want to use your mic you want to be checking the crank is up to spec (48-48.016mm).

I've personally no idea why you'd want extra clearance, it's not something I've ever come across but I'm far from a pro engine builder Big grin


Do you mean 44.975-44.991? That's the min max crank journal dimensions isn't it? The 48-48.016 is the inside measurement of the rod big end bore isn't it?

Glad I spent £100 odd quid on a micrometer now you're telling me to use plastiguage!! LOL


Yes sorry Pete, 44.975-44.991 are the ones!

I'm not keen on trying to measure the inside of the bearings once they're fitted in the rods. Your not meant to touch the surfaces never mind rubbing an Inside mic across it. Each to there own though.

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Posted 22nd May 2012 at 13:21
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stan_306gti6 Forum Admin

Location: Kent

Registered: 18 Jan 2004

Posts: 21,768

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Post #40
Rich - Does this increase in clearance have an effect on oil pressure, and if so what? Unsure

________________________________________

"Supercharged - 454.1bhp/317.5lb/ft"
Peugeot 306 GTi-6
2000 (X), Moonstone Love
Posted 22nd May 2012 at 13:26
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pete_rallye

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Registered: 12 Dec 2002

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Post #41
So you'd recommend using plastigauge to check the clearance rather than using an inside mic on the bearings?

________________________________________

Oulton Park in a BTCC 306 vid 1
Oulton Park in a BTCC 306 vid 2
Lap of the 'ring
Posted 22nd May 2012 at 13:26
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stan_306gti6 Forum Admin

Location: Kent

Registered: 18 Jan 2004

Posts: 21,768

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Post #42
pete_rallye wrote:
So you'd recommend using plastigauge to check the clearance rather than using an inside mic on the bearings?


I believe this is what he's saying Pete. Yes

As Allenallen says, probably not a good idea to risk damaging the running surfaces of the bearings, however slight.

________________________________________

"Supercharged - 454.1bhp/317.5lb/ft"
Peugeot 306 GTi-6
2000 (X), Moonstone Love
Posted 22nd May 2012 at 13:28
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pete_rallye

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Location: Yorkshire

Registered: 12 Dec 2002

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Post #43
stan_306gti6 wrote:
Rich - Does this increase in clearance have an effect on oil pressure, and if so what? Unsure


I would imagine as the oil thins you will need very consistent oil pressure with the greater clearance but as long as you have that it should be fine. What are the other negatives to running extra clearance? Wouldn't the engine not run quite as smoothly as with closer tolerances?

________________________________________

Oulton Park in a BTCC 306 vid 1
Oulton Park in a BTCC 306 vid 2
Lap of the 'ring
Posted 22nd May 2012 at 13:28
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rich_w

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Location: Havant, Hampshire

Registered: 29 Jul 2004

Posts: 5,412

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Post #44
stan_306gti6 wrote:
rich_w wrote:
pete_rallye wrote:
Those bearings above are also available with an additional thou clearance, why would you want that!? Also, the difference between minimum and Max vertical oil clearance is greater than 2 thou, so assuming you're between those 2 figures you'd be ok?



The bearings I use in all of the big power S/C motors have additional vertical oil clearance (1 thou).

It's main purpose is to gain additional oil flow through the journal, to help with heat dissipation.

With the increased RPMs and wild cylinder pressure envelope curves, the bearings are working a lot harder than on a standard engine...

Smile


I guess this is one of the reasons why my engine has been 100% reliable. Yes




It all helps, particularly over the long term as wear is reduced.

We also favour a more viscous 20W50 Royal Purple race oil due it's increased film strength, so the increased vertical oil clearance also mitigates any loss in oil flow due to the increased viscosity.


Smile

________________________________________

Contact Details:

rich@lynxpowerengineering.co.uk
07732 822546

Posted 22nd May 2012 at 13:29
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stan_306gti6 Forum Admin

Location: Kent

Registered: 18 Jan 2004

Posts: 21,768

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Post #45
I was thinking this Rich...

So basically by having a larger clearance but more viscous oil you are achieving the same thing as having a smaller clearance with thinner oil...the fact then that the film strength of Royal Purple is high has got to be of benefit and as you say more oil can flow dissipating the heat away..

So using the larger clearance bearings with the higher viscosity oil would I guess give you roughly the same psi of oil pressure as what a standard bearing on 10w40 would give?

________________________________________

"Supercharged - 454.1bhp/317.5lb/ft"
Peugeot 306 GTi-6
2000 (X), Moonstone Love
Posted 22nd May 2012 at 13:34
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rich_w

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Location: Havant, Hampshire

Registered: 29 Jul 2004

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Post #46
stan_306gti6 wrote:
Rich - Does this increase in clearance have an effect on oil pressure, and if so what? Unsure



Oil pressure is relatively unaffected.

At the lower RPMs, you may see slightly less pressure compared to a standard engine.

At higher RPMS, say 4500+, you won't see a noticable difference in oil pressure.

This is because the pressure is governed by the pressure relief piston / spring within the oil pump. There is some spare capacity / redundancy with regards to the oil pump flow rate vs. the engines oil flow capabilities, so a percentage of the oil pumps flow is always being re-circulted into the sump via the pressure relief piston (at higher RPMs only).

So, when you run more veritcal oil clearance, flow is increased through the engine, the oil pressure remains the same, and less of the oil pumps flow gets re-circulated into the sump via the internal pressure relief piston.

Smile

________________________________________

Contact Details:

rich@lynxpowerengineering.co.uk
07732 822546

Posted 22nd May 2012 at 13:38
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stan_306gti6 Forum Admin

Location: Kent

Registered: 18 Jan 2004

Posts: 21,768

Status: Offline
Post #47
Cheers for clearing that up. Thumbs up

I know what sort of figures to look for then once I have an oil pressure gauge installed. Cool

________________________________________

"Supercharged - 454.1bhp/317.5lb/ft"
Peugeot 306 GTi-6
2000 (X), Moonstone Love
Posted 22nd May 2012 at 13:52
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daveyboy

aka Jim Davey

Location: Southampton

Registered: 01 Oct 2007

Posts: 8,648

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Post #48
You might want to consider an IWIS seamless roller oil pump chain if you are thinking of running thicker oil at high RPM, rich_w has been through a few of the standard ones as the seamed standard chain rollers seem to spread under the extra load and fail. I can dig out the part number and put you in contact with my supplier if you like?

________________________________________

R H Davey Welding Supplies. I sell new and used welding equipment in the Hampshire area. I take on welding jobs in the evenings, ally casting repairs are one of my specialities but I can weld pretty much anything. PM me with your requirements.

Some of my services: (See my for sale threads)
Engine mount/chassis repair
Solid Beam Mounts BACK IN PRODUCTION
Harness bars
Posted 22nd May 2012 at 17:04
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clen666

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Location: Co. Durham

Registered: 12 Feb 2009

Posts: 2,401

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Post #49
I'd be interested Jim, what sort of price are they?

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Posted 22nd May 2012 at 19:34
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daveyboy

aka Jim Davey

Location: Southampton

Registered: 01 Oct 2007

Posts: 8,648

Status: Offline
Post #50
Around £25-30 it's a while since I bought mine, I got 3, 1 for me and the other 2 went to Rich and Chris with a Pug.

________________________________________

R H Davey Welding Supplies. I sell new and used welding equipment in the Hampshire area. I take on welding jobs in the evenings, ally casting repairs are one of my specialities but I can weld pretty much anything. PM me with your requirements.

Some of my services: (See my for sale threads)
Engine mount/chassis repair
Solid Beam Mounts BACK IN PRODUCTION
Harness bars
Posted 22nd May 2012 at 20:21
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